Wanting a bit of Diacetyl in my pils

[Nickyssix]

Hi there, I'm relatively new to posting on here, but have learned most of what i know about brewing on this forum - so thanks to all the heads out there!
My question - Does anybody attempt to get Diacetyl on purpose when making a Pilsner Urquell type beer ?
I know that is a definite characteristic of that particular beer so i wondered if anyone has a method for this.
Couple of points -
1. I always pitch at about 10-12 degrees (50-53f) and have never had a problem with diacetyl..these days i dont really bother resting because it never happens.
2. This time i pitched at about 15c (60f) hoping this will create a little bit of butterscotch i'm looking for.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this ?
Is this crazy talk?
Thanks in advance

 

[Homercidal]

This is crazy talk. WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU WANT THIS??

People strive to get this stuff OUT of their beers!

 

[beerkench]

I think the diacetyl is easier to detect due to lagers being such light and delicate beers that can't hide any off flavours and therefore it is sometimes described as a characteristic of the style.
It wouldn't be wise though to try and get more diacetyl in the beer.

 

[Nickyssix]

This is crazy talk. WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU WANT THIS??

People strive to get this stuff OUT of their beers!

yea i know what your saying - but my girlfriend just loves Urquell and Diacetyl is a characteristic of this beer. She's been begging me to make one just like it. I make 90% lagers and she likes them but still says its not an Urquell. And i agree because they lack the Diacetyl.
I've been to Pilzen in the Czech Republic to the pilsner Uquell brewery and this is what they say is in the profile of this beer. So the brewery itself is being ridiculously true to the tradition and somehow achieving this on purpose. Fair enough - it was the first light coloured beer made in probably the most famous brewery in the world.

 

[Nickyssix]

I think the diacetyl is easier to detect due to lagers being such light and delicate beers that can't hide any off flavours and therefore it is sometimes described as a characteristic of the style.
It wouldn't be wise though to try and get more diacetyl in the beer.

I just love geeking out on this stuff. I'm a full blazing brew nerd.. i worked hard on being able to brew good lagers - this is just another little area i wanted to investigate

 

[SpeedYellow]

This is seriously crazy talk. Regardless, here's your solution: make a good proper pils for normal people. Then when pouring one for your girlfriend, add a couple drops of buttered popcorn flavor, which is pure diacetyl. Problem solved.

Oh, and ditch that girl or next thing you know you're making posts like "How do I oxidize my beer?" and "How do I intentionally skunk my beer?"

 

[Homercidal]

This is seriously crazy talk. Regardless, here's your solution: make a good proper pils for normal people. Then when pouring one for your girlfriend, add a couple drops of buttered popcorn flavor, which is pure diacetyl. Problem solved.

Oh, and ditch that girl or next thing you know you're making posts like "How do I oxidize my beer?" and "How do I intentionally skunk my beer?"

That's funny.

Ok seriously, I am not quite sure how to go about it. I am not sure what gets that flavor in the beer to start with, but I *think* it's a natural phase the yeast go through in producing it. They then clean it up when you D-rest at a higher temp for a few days AFTER fermentation.

Maybe drop to lagering temps before active fermentation is complete before the yeast can clean up? It may be a job to get full attenuation that way.

I'm sure someone here can help you get what you want. Lots of people get diacetyl in their beers on accident.

 

[Nickyssix]

This is seriously crazy talk. Regardless, here's your solution: make a good proper pils for normal people. Then when pouring one for your girlfriend, add a couple drops of buttered popcorn flavor, which is pure diacetyl. Problem solved.

Oh, and ditch that girl or next thing you know you're making posts like "How do I oxidize my beer?" and "How do I intentionally skunk my beer?"

A proper pils? Not the pilsner brewed in pilzen aka the original first pilsner beer ever made? Have u tryed Urquell? You didn't like it?

 

[Nickyssix]

And yea she does like those skunky Heinekens - that's my next question - just kidding.

 

[SpeedYellow]

That's funny.



Ok seriously, I am not quite sure how to go about it...

It would be exceedingly hard to get some "ideal" diacetyl level consistently on a homebrew scale, where we have such imprecise control at all steps in the brewing process. The result for us is that diacetyl is unpredictable. You can make a beer sloppily that has no diacetyl, or follow the proper procedures yet get a d-bomb that develops after a few weeks in the keg.

I was dead serious about the artificial butter flavor. Supermarkets carry it for like $5.

 

[Gavin C]

You are reading too much into the style.

A light diactyl is acceptable but may not be present. This implies that owing to the grain-bill a remnant, a whisper if you will, of diacetyl is not necessarily a flaw. An overt diactyl most certainly is.

If you have a remnant of diacetyl you're OK, maybe. Certainly adding or trying to retain diacetyl is indeed crazy talk IMHO.

 

[schematix]

first lager i made was a butter bomb - it was under pitched by about half. it cleaned up over time but it was very noticeable for about 2 months.

i actually grew to like the beer more and more over time. it gave it an interesting sweet flavor.

now with proper processes, i can't recreate that beer again. even with the same grain bill it's not even close.

 

[Nickyssix]

Thank you everyone for your responses - i will carry on as usual - and not try to get any diacetyl

 

[brettwasbtd]

A bunch of posts and no one asks the important question: what yeast are you using? Some are more prevalent to diacetyl production than others. I made a bo pils with wlp800 and it had quite a bit of diacetyl, which faded, but is still slightly perceptible.

 

[xwillx]

I love Urquell as well; I agree you need a touch of diacetyl to really replicate the experience. I suggest using wlp800 and dropping to lagering temp before you reach final gravity. It will generally fade as you lager, however. Perhaps you could fine with gelatin or possibly filter to really it lock in that flavor.

 

[Nickyssix]

Awesome responses thanks. Will look at that yeast next time for sure.. used m84 this time.

 

[Nickyssix]

I love Urquell as well; I agree you need a touch of diacetyl to really replicate the experience. I suggest using wlp800 and dropping to lagering temp before you reach final gravity. It will generally fade as you lager, however. Perhaps you could fine with gelatin or possibly filter to really it lock in that flavor.

Ok cool thanks.. was also wondering about pitching at room temp and letting it fall gradually to fermentation temp. I usually pitch low..I hear this can produce a bit of diacetyl.

 

[Gavin C]

I would strongly advise against cooling the beer (any beer) before the FG is reached. If you bottle it's a perfect recipe for bottle bombs.

It will also by definition give you an incompletely fermented lager which is a major flaw. You should get Diacetyl in spades though so 1 in the win column there.

Adding gelatin will not remove the yeast and stabilize the beer. Neither will filtration. Yeast will remain and consume the residual sugars if the beer is ever warmed. Bottle bombs or gushers are likely. Less of a safety issue with begging of course but your flavor will suffer.

In short very bad advice IMO. Of course if you keg there really are no safety issues with this approach. Do it for science. I'd pass. I want my beers fully fermented.

 

[xwillx]

If you bring the temp down slowly, any healthy lager yeast should continue working, although at a slower rate. You may be able to reach final gravity without lowering diacetyl as significantly.

Also, while filtering or gelatin may not completely remove all the yeast, it will reduce the number of active yeast, again, potentially slowing diacetyl reduction.

I do agree, however, that this experiment would safer (and more effective) using kegs. One could possibly bottle condition without additional priming solution if you took accurate gravity
readings and bottled with a few points to go, but that sounds tricky and unpredictable.

 

[douglasbarbin]

Only way to achieve this consistently is to add diacetyl after the fact, like SpeedYellow said.

 

[Nickyssix]

Only way to achieve this consistently is to add diacetyl after the fact, like SpeedYellow said.

i wonder if they add it in at the Urquell Brewery? Its imported at my local store and i drink it a lot and the light sweet diacetyl is very consistant and pretty obvious.

 

[douglasbarbin]

i wonder if they add it in at the Urquell Brewery? Its imported at my local store and i drink it a lot and the light sweet diacetyl is very consistant and pretty obvious.

I think that it occurs naturally at the Urquell brewery. The thing you have to understand is that commercial brewing is not the same as homebrewing. Commercial brewers are usually able to get much more consistent results than homebrewers for a variety of reasons.

Also, I don't know about the PU where you live, but from what I understand, PU in the United States is pasteurized and the diacetyl is less noticeable than it is in unpasteurized beer from the brewery.

 

[Nickyssix]

I think that it occurs naturally at the Urquell brewery. The thing you have to understand is that commercial brewing is not the same as homebrewing. Commercial brewers are usually able to get much more consistent results than homebrewers for a variety of reasons.

Also, I don't know about the PU where you live, but from what I understand, PU in the United States is pasteurized and the diacetyl is less noticeable than it is in unpasteurized beer from the brewery.

Good call.
We get the imported Urquell - a beautiful thing. And Bud Va too.. not sure why from what i hear its brewed so cheaply in Czech that it's cheaper to import it all the way to New Zealand then brew it here