Vorlauf and BIAB?

[BikerMatt]

I`ve been bag brewing for about a year now and got my method honed out pretty well. I`m mostly using irish moss in my boils and always see a lot of big protein clumps towards the end of the boil like someone threw a raw egg into the mix, but still my beers are most always cloudy. I am sparging so that after mashing I hang a stainless bucket with holes drilled into the bottom over my kettle, place my bag in the bucket and pour hot water through the bag until I hit my boil volume, I have hit my target preboil OG on the nose every time and getting about 70% efficiency so the method itself is working fairly well, but I got thinking should I drain some of the wort from my boiling kettle onto a measuring cup and pour it onto the grains until my preboiled wort gets clearer? Does it help when BIAB:ing?

IIRC I have only managed to produce crystal clear beer ONCE and even that produced massive chill haze.

 

[afro_lou]

Mostly responding to see what the actual answer is, but if I’m not mistaken, vorlauff only really applies to a standard mash as the grain bed needs to start compacting to start filtering out the smaller grain particles during the sparge. When BIAB-ing, the grain sack should take care of that small particulate, right?

 

[jtratcliff]

Nah, no vorlauf needed for BIAB... Lou has it right... Vorluaf sets the grain bed to act as filter for larger particles.... In BIAB, the bag does that for you. I personally don't worry about clear beer (although if a beer does turn out particularly clear, I often point it out )... Flavor trumps appearance in my book. I BIAB and No-chill and I still get clear beer... TIME is your friend,... I go 3 weeks in the fermenter and a good 3 weeks in the bottle before a week in the fridge...

Is it as clear as the filtered, commercial stuff? Maybe not... but still pretty darned clear...

More important than "How does it look?" is "How does it taste?"

 

[BikerMatt]

Thx mate figured it's probly like so but thought doesn't hurt to check... I also always primary for three weeks regardless of how long ago the bubbler stopped mainly so I don't have to open the lid for FG measurements since I ferment in i garage workshop that has all kinds of stuff, metal dust, chemicals etc that I don't wanna risk getting in, then I always bottle condition for three weeks (aside from the few testers now and then) but I usually chill the beers on the day of consumption, or the day before... I heard from an old Brewing TV video that adding gypsum to the boil could also help to clear the beer?

I don't really WORRY about it as most of my homebrews, even the ones brewed with a completely improvised recipe, turn out better than the five buck bottles sold in the liquor store, BUT I'd like to understand WHY am I not getting clear beer even if I tried. The winter is making it's way here though so gonna be trying to cold crash the primary before bottling for the first time. Problem with that is I gotta drag it out first to chill and then back inside to be bottled and I fear moving it around will get the settled stuff back into solution thus negating any desired gain...

 

[madscientist451]

A brulosophy exbeeriment showed that the vorlauf technique does make a difference:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/22/th...oes-it-make-a-difference-exbeeriment-results/

But, the difference was only slight. Could the dry hopping have contributed to the cloudy beer in the above experiment?

Part 2 of the above exbeeriment produced clear beer, but the method used wasn't BIAB:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/28/the-vorlauf-effect-pt-2-testing-the-extreme-exbeeriment-results/

 

[RM-MN]

Thx mate figured it's probly like so but thought doesn't hurt to check... I also always primary for three weeks regardless of how long ago the bubbler stopped mainly so I don't have to open the lid for FG measurements since I ferment in i garage workshop that has all kinds of stuff, metal dust, chemicals etc that I don't wanna risk getting in, then I always bottle condition for three weeks (aside from the few testers now and then) but I usually chill the beers on the day of consumption, or the day before... I heard from an old Brewing TV video that adding gypsum to the boil could also help to clear the beer?

I don't really WORRY about it as most of my homebrews, even the ones brewed with a completely improvised recipe, turn out better than the five buck bottles sold in the liquor store, BUT I'd like to understand WHY am I not getting clear beer even if I tried. The winter is making it's way here though so gonna be trying to cold crash the primary before bottling for the first time. Problem with that is I gotta drag it out first to chill and then back inside to be bottled and I fear moving it around will get the settled stuff back into solution thus negating any desired gain...

Your time line is pretty good...right up to the chill part. You may be seeing chill haze, the proteins that are dissolved in the beer becoming visible due to the temperature change. Try putting a few bottles in the refrigerator for a week so the proteins have time to settle out before pouring.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Any particulate large enough to be filtered out by performing a vorlauf will drop rather quickly in the fermenter. Also, choose more flocculant strains to help it along.

I BIAB and I used to use whirlfloc, but lately I've been skipping even that as I've been leaving beers in primary for 5-6 weeks before bottling. That longer period of rest post fermemtation plus a few weeks bottle conditioning and some time in the fridge lagering results in compacted sediment and clear beer anyway. When I first started brewing I was impatient and the beers I was making were cloudy and yeasty which few people like. Now I have 4 fermenters in constant rotation and the longer process is yielding better beers with less effort. Even my hefeweizen is clear like a pilsener when poured unless I intentionally swirl up the yeast.

If you really want to produce clear beers faster without chill haze, use gelatin and cold crash to 32f. A lot of folks only crash for a couple of days but if I'm going to bother crashing at all, I like to hold it for 5-7 days; since I only have time for beer activities on weekends each step in my process tend to be at least a week long. Also, consider getting a cold crash guardian from brewhardware to prevent oxidation while crashing.

 

[Mer-man]

Or you could use kettle finings, chill in your kettle, leave it for 45 minutes, and then rack off the clear wort from above the trub.

 

[BikerMatt]

Exactly what I`m doing, irish moss, coil chill, whirlpool, let sit, rack along the top. Which is why I`m so baffled to what is making my beer so hazy. I just found a nine month old bottle of Maris Otter smash which was crystal clear at room temperature but even though I moved it to the fridge- and poured it like a national treasure it still chill hazed totally cloudy.

I don`t MIND drinking cloudy beer but would like to understand where is the error in my ways that`s keeping me from it.

 

[cooper]

Exactly what I`m doing, irish moss, coil chill, whirlpool, let sit, rack along the top. Which is why I`m so baffled to what is making my beer so hazy. I just found a nine month old bottle of Maris Otter smash which was crystal clear at room temperature but even though I moved it to the fridge- and poured it like a national treasure it still chill hazed totally cloudy.

I don`t MIND drinking cloudy beer but would like to understand where is the error in my ways that`s keeping me from it.

What’s your ph measurements in the mash? Are you using RO water and adjusting with acid and adding cacl2/gypsum? This is what I do and I get really clear beer in just a couple weeks in the keg.

 

[z-bob]

I do BIAB, and I've started fermenting in a bucket for a week, then transferring to a carboy to finish. It makes it easier to bottle direct from the fermenter. A lot of flour gets through the bag that probably would have been removed by vorlauf (sp?), but that just means I have more sediment in the fermenter -- in my case, the bucket. But it packs down pretty well and I really don't lose that much beer to it.

My beers are nice and clear, but usually have chill haze. I'm okay with that. And chill haze has nothing to do with flour getting thru the sparge.

 

[BikerMatt]

What’s your ph measurements in the mash? Are you using RO water and adjusting with acid and adding cacl2/gypsum? This is what I do and I get really clear beer in just a couple weeks in the keg. View attachment 591504

This is actually one of the things I meant to be be asking about. I'm using regular tap water as it is known to be exceptionally pure here BUT due to the soil it is often referred to as soft water so some gypsum might actually be a good idea to try. TBH I've never measured the Ph of my mash.

 

[cooper]

I’d give that a shot. At least you’d have another parameter to investigate and change to see if you get a better result. Also when using RO water it takes very little acid to get below 6ph. Less than 1/2ml for 8 gallons in my experience.

 

[Dland]

Most of my beers are pretty clear, what I do: Whirlflock near end of boil, a conical fermentor to facilitate 2 or 3 trub dumps, two weeks in it, then to kegs and cold crashed and aged at around 33F. Carbonation is either spunded or forced, try not to drink for 2 weeks for ales, 4 for lagers. Keg dip tubes shortened about 3/4 inch.

Have not messed with my water profile yet, it is from a well and fairly acidic. It seems pretty suited for the styles I make.

 

[cegan09]

your clarity problem shouldn't be from something that a vorlauf would solve. With my BIAB setup I don't vorlauf at all. I used to do a weird sparge but only because my kettle wasn't large enough for full volume, now I just do full volume mashes. Sometimes I use kettle finings, sometimes I don't. I don't worry if some kettle trub gets in the fermenter, it all settles out anyway. Fermented in carboys, rarely cold crashed, transferred with a siphon to either a bottling bucket or keg.

Just about all my beers are crystal clear after a week or two in their final vessel, if they are a style that is supposed to be. I do start with distilled water and build up a profile, and I do temp control the fermentation.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Exactly what I`m doing, irish moss, coil chill, whirlpool, let sit, rack along the top. Which is why I`m so baffled to what is making my beer so hazy. I just found a nine month old bottle of Maris Otter smash which was crystal clear at room temperature but even though I moved it to the fridge- and poured it like a national treasure it still chill hazed totally cloudy.

I don`t MIND drinking cloudy beer but would like to understand where is the error in my ways that`s keeping me from it.

Cold conditioning will clear your beer. Even a nine month old beer has proteins that will floc when chilled.

Nothing better than time and temperature to clear beer.

Store your beer cold for several weeks prior to consumption.

Sounds like you are keeping all your beer warm and chilling just prior to consumption???

The term is “cold conditioning” and your beer will love you for it lol.

This is the huge advantage to using kegs imo, your beer is stored cold and clears very well.

 

[user 30639]

Cold conditioning will clear your beer. Even a nine month old beer has proteins that will floc when chilled.

Nothing better than time and temperature to clear beer.

Store your beer cold for several weeks prior to consumption.

Sounds like you are keeping all your beer warm and chilling just prior to consumption???

The term is “cold conditioning” and your beer will love you for it lol.

This is the huge advantage to using kegs imo, your beer is stored cold and clears very well.

Agree with this. Once I built a keezer and could monitor and control my temps, it really helped my beer clear up. Cold + time = clear beer.

And if you're kegging your beer, hit it with gelatin. It's a cheap and easy way to clear the beer up.

 

[b_oh_bee]

Also, consider getting a cold crash guardian from brewhardware to prevent oxidation while crashing.

hadn't seen that one before, you have good luck with it? I had been looking at the Jaybird CO2 harvester. Similar idea but uses Mason jars, but is like 5x more expensive. may have to give the guardian a shot first for that price.

 

[Cato1507]

Thx mate figured it's probly like so but thought doesn't hurt to check... I also always primary for three weeks regardless of how long ago the bubbler stopped mainly so I don't have to open the lid for FG measurements since I ferment in i garage workshop that has all kinds of stuff, metal dust, chemicals etc that I don't wanna risk getting in, then I always bottle condition for three weeks (aside from the few testers now and then) but I usually chill the beers on the day of consumption, or the day before... I heard from an old Brewing TV video that adding gypsum to the boil could also help to clear the beer?

I don't really WORRY about it as most of my homebrews, even the ones brewed with a completely improvised recipe, turn out better than the five buck bottles sold in the liquor store, BUT I'd like to understand WHY am I not getting clear beer even if I tried. The winter is making it's way here though so gonna be trying to cold crash the primary before bottling for the first time. Problem with that is I gotta drag it out first to chill and then back inside to be bottled and I fear moving it around will get the settled stuff back into solution thus negating any desired gain...

To me cold crashing is important. My fermenters are in a mini fridge so I just drop the temp setting on my inkbird to 36F for 3-4 days before bottling. I bottle condition for 3 weeks and then put what I'm going to drink for the next couple of days for 3 days to let the CO2 liquid into the beer. I get pretty clear beer with this method.

 

[balrog]

Or you could use kettle finings, chill in your kettle, leave it for 45 minutes, and then rack off the clear wort from above the trub.

Yeast choice & grist choice affects final beer more than only fermenting clear kettle output. I BIAB. Wilser Bag. I mill to dust. I throw everything from kettle into bucket. Everything. Sometimes including, but not limited to, my glasses. But that's another story. Time and temp will clear the beer, but some yeast/grain combos are just gonna be cloudy. Period. I've not tested how long to ferment reading glasses.

Cold conditioning will clear your beer. Even a nine month old beer has proteins that will floc when chilled.

Nothing better than time and temperature to clear beer.

Store your beer cold for several weeks prior to consumption.

Sounds like you are keeping all your beer warm and chilling just prior to consumption???

The term is “cold conditioning” and your beer will love you for it lol.

This is the huge advantage to using kegs imo, your beer is stored cold and clears very well.

All this.

 

[Jayjay1976]

hadn't seen that one before, you have good luck with it? I had been looking at the Jaybird CO2 harvester. Similar idea but uses Mason jars, but is like 5x more expensive. may have to give the guardian a shot first for that price.

I only just started using one but I like it so far! One watchout, I had a bit of trouble getting a proper seal when using a grommet to install it in the lid of my fermonster, but YMMV.

 

[olephart]

These help keep my readers dry. Lol

 

[olephart]

Aurgh, the pic didn't show up and I can't delete that post.

 

[balrog]

Color me intrigued...

 

[yourlastchance89]

In relation to the original post, I do BIAB and as of my last batch I've started to vorlauf in addition to milling the grain in my straining bag and removing as much excess flour as possible from it before doughing in. I noticed a pretty significant drop in the break material that made it in the fermenter. I started doing this more out of curiosity of how it will affect the flavor of my beer versus achieving clarity, as I've pretty much gotten crystal clear beers everytime anyway. I know everyone says the break material will settle out but no one is really discussing the impact that material is going to have on the taste of the final product. That's what I'm interested in.

 

[balrog]

...you remove flour after milling? That's starch (which you want, as it converts to sugar, for the yeast to convert to alcohol). You want all the grain regardless of it's crushdness/flourocity.

 

[yourlastchance89]

...you remove flour after milling? That's starch (which you want, as it converts to sugar, for the yeast to convert to alcohol). You want all the grain regardless of it's crushdness/flourocity.

I was initially worried about this as well, but it had absolutely zero effect on my efficiency. I still hit my target numbers right on point as I was before doing this.

 

[BikerMatt]

Was browsing through ebay and a thought struck me, one quick search and a few clicks later I am now a proud owner of a brand new grain basket that has legs and fits quite snugly into my boiling pot, should be able to vorlauf with that much better, might even consider getting a circulating pump at some point but this alone (provided it`s any good, 200micron should do right?) is a big step up from the old BIAB and sparging bucket type deal which BTW takes frikkin forever to sparge, hence the need (want) to upgrade.

 

[cooper]

You'll love the basket! The only thing I'm worried about is the flow rate for a 200 micron which will be slower. I had a 300 micron that was too slow for my pump so I upgraded to a 400 micron and things are awesome now with re-circulation. If you're not doing re-circulation though it'll probably work great for you.

 

[BikerMatt]

Dont have a pump yet, as said currently sparging by dropping the bag into a steel bucket with holes drilled in bottom and running water through it while hanging over the boiling pot and it takes for fookin EVER! It'll be an upgrade for now, probly next step is going all in with a grainfather or sth in a year or two.

 

[BobBailey]

This is actually one of the things I meant to be be asking about. I'm using regular tap water as it is known to be exceptionally pure here BUT due to the soil it is often referred to as soft water so some gypsum might actually be a good idea to try. TBH I've never measured the Ph of my mash.

Calcium really helps with clarity as well as mash efficiency. 50ppm is often stated to be a minimum, but I like at least 80ppm. Depending on whether you are going for a maltier or hoppier beer you can add Calcium Cloride or Gypsum respectively.

Vorlauf isn't necessary with BIAB.

 

[wepeeler]

Also, consider getting a cold crash guardian from brewhardware to prevent oxidation while crashing.

Great idea, but does the bag deflate when you dry hop? I would assume so...

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

Great idea, but does the bag deflate when you dry hop? I would assume so...

I use one and the bag doesn't deflate. Just be careful not to move it around too much or press on the bag.

 

[LittleRiver]

If deflation during dry hopping is an issue, you should be able to rig a valve to prevent it.

 

[wepeeler]

I use one and the bag doesn't deflate. Just be careful not to move it around too much or press on the bag.

There has to be some swapping of CO2 and O2 when pulling off the top to dry hop. Even if the bag doesn't deflate, I'd be concerned with the exchange. It'd be better if there was an extra port on the lid of the fermenter. A quick pull and dry hop would be better.

 

[beerisyummy]

For those who use BIAB and DO vorlauf, are you simply draining some sweet wort out the kettle spigot and pouring back on top of the grain bag? Or am I missing something?

 

[BikerMatt]

That's my idea of vorlauf and I don't suppose I'm that wrong with it