Vienna Malt and protein rest and modification

[Facinerous]

So today I was trying to think of a new recipe to brew. I had put an irish red recipe together a while back but it wasn't quite what I had been hoping for. So for a change up and new recipe I decided to try vienna malt a the primary malt in my grain bill. I have never done this before, I have only used 2-row, so I just have a simple question.

I didn't realize that vienna malt is a 6-row malt. Or at least that is what I read in a malt descriptions web page. So if that is wrong let me know.

Also, and the leading reason I am creating this thread is to ask. I used beer smith to help me create the recipe. I do this just to give everything a look over and see where the estimated srm, ibu values and the like would come out at. When I click over to the brewing part it calls out for a protein rest which I have never seen beer smith call for in a brewing process.

So the question is, do you recommend a protein rest when using vienna malt as a base malt? I'm just intrigued why beer smith would put this in the mash process if the general consensus is otherwise.

0 min - Protein Rest (122.0 F for 30 min, 2 min rise)
Add 16 qt of water at 128 F
32 min - Saccharification (152.0 F for 45 min, 15 min rise)
Heat to 152 over 15 min
1:32 hours - Mash Out (168 F for 10 min, 10 min rise)
1:52 hourse - Mash complete
Fly sparge with 21.59 qt water at 168 F

Secondary. Doesn't that seem like a lot of water to sparge with? It seem to me in my little brain like the initial 16 quarts and the 21 sparge quarts should be swapped. Thats just tertiary to my primary question though.

Thanks

 

[Beernik]

This is what I gleaned from The Brewmaster's Bible:

German Vienna is 2 row. American Vienna is 6 row.

6 row is higher in enzymes, proteins, and tannins than 2 row. The extra enzymes make it a good malt when using a lot of adjunct. But the extra protein means you need to use a protein rest.

 

[VladOfTrub]

The SNR number of the malt helps to determine if the rest is needed. If the SNR is 40 and above, protein rest should be omitted. Above SNR 40 the malt is suited more for single infusion, or with a low conversion temp bumped up to a high conversion temp process. Depending on the malster, Vienna can be lower modified. Check out Weyermanns site for recipes. They may have one for Vienna. A lot of their recipes call for a protein rest using their malt. You might consider using Weyermann Vienna malt for the batch. The percentage of protein indicates it is a 2 row variety. The 16 qt protein rest temp infusion depends on the weight of the grain bill; that you didn't mention. A thick mash takes longer to convert than a thin mash at the same temps. Maybe beershmitty is tricky enough to figure in mash thickness with conversion time. Beershmitty probably figured in absorption of water, OG and the size of the equipment when coming up with the 21 qt sparge. Sparge until pH starts to rise to 5.8 and stop. Do you have a fired mash tun or some method other than infusion to go from protein rest temp to conversion temp?

 

[Facinerous]

Thanks for the info fellas.

The Vienna malt is from the ol lbhs in my area, and I will have to give em a call to find out what maltster it comes from. I still try to do most of my recipe shopping through them. I'm thinking that its most likely an American six row verision.

Fortunately I do have the ability to direct fire my mash tun. Though I have other options as well and I try not to utilize that method. Accepting the fact that if I use the beer smith process that would probably be the best way though.

I had read around a bit more, and it seems the general consensus is in agreement with your answers so I appreciate that.

To supply better information, here is the recipe I came up with. May be modified here and there, I'd call it Rev. 1

Batch Size: 5 Gal ABV: 5.11%
OG: 1.053 FG: 1.014
IBU 21.4 Color: 13.9 SRM

7# Vienna Malt (Beersmith is assuming a German malt)
2# Munich Malt
.25# Chocolate Malt
.25# Crystal 40
.75# Carared
.5 oz Northern Brewer @ 60 min
.5 oz Willamette @ 30 min (I may change this addition to 20 or 15 min, not sure yet)
Whirlfloc Tablet @ 15 min
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient
London Ale Yeast: WLP013

Beer Smith Says
0 min - Protein Rest (122.0 F for 30 min, 2 min rise)
Add 16 qt of water at 128 F
32 min - Saccharification (152.0 F for 45 min, 15 min rise)
Heat to 152 over 15 min
1:32 hours - Mash Out (168 F for 10 min, 10 min rise)
1:52 hourse - Mash complete
Fly sparge with 21.59 qt water at 168 F

Leaving out all the extras that beer smith says cause I don't really see it being to relevant.

 

[tootal]

Even a malt with a SNR over 40 can benefit from a protein rest although it should be a 131 degree rest, not a 122 rest. The old 122 rest is for the old unmodified malts which are getting hard to find. The advise to find out the SNR of your malt is a good one. Over 40 will have good results without a protein rest, however, as said, a 131 rest will give a slightly better efficiency if your system allows you to do a step mash procedure. A malt like a German pilsner malt that's under a 40 SNR yet is still modified would prefer a 127 rest.

 

[BansheeRider]

Protein rest only matters if you're worried about clear beer correct?

 

[VladOfTrub]

Banshee. Yes, clarity is part of it. Also, stability and resistance to spoilage.

Malt with an SNR between 37 to 40 can employ a 131F rest. That's a brewers artistic license. However, it isn't recommended at 40 and above except for darker beers that have a higher final conversion temp. Malt with an SNR of 37 to 40 is on the low end of over modification. The higher the SNR the less body the beer will have and should be single infused. What happens during the 131F temp is that beta is working on the non reducing ends of the starch chain, even though the starch hasn't fully gelatinized. That is where the added efficiency comes in. The OG is higher. At 131F protein rest temp, final conversion should be in the 158-162F range. At 131F, the rest would have to be very short in duration using 40 SNR malt in a lighter colored lager or ale as chill haze can form and be noticed. With the tri-decoction method, the first decoction goes from acid rest temp to a protein rest temp to conversion to a boil. In the 2nd decoction, protein rest is skipped. When the 1st decoction is added back into the main mash to reach protein rest temp of the mash. The protein rest can be over an hour, due to time it takes to heat the 2nd decoction to conversion temp and to boiling, based on the beer style. If the brewer is using high SNR malt. The tun is fired to keep the rest short by denaturing proteinase by raising the temperature very quickly. The 2nd decoction is added to reach conversion temp of the style being brewed. In the recipe it calls for a 122F protein rest because the conversion rest is 152F for the style being brewed. The 131F rest works when mash pH is around 5.3, 5.4. The pH is on the high end that beta amylase favors. Vienna malt, again, depending on the malster, can have a high IOB number as high as 9.6. The mash should have an acid rest between 95-110F to allow reduction of beta glucanase to enzymes that benefit wort fermetability, aid product stability, lower mash pH to help during the protein rest/starch conversion and to ensure the wort to be fermented with Ale yeast is in the pH band of the yeast.

 

[BigFloyd]

I did a Vienna SMASH (with Amarillo hops) last year using 100% Weyermann Vienna malt from my LHBS. I doughed-in and mashed at 153*F. No protein rest. It converted just fine (76% efficiency w/ E-BIAB) and that brew was quite clear (and yummy) with no chill haze or other issues.

Perhaps it depends on the maltster. Does anyone know if Weyermann Vienna is 2-row or 6-row?

 

[Facinerous]

Crap.

@ Vlad... Mind blown.

Now I have a butt ton of stuff to look into.

Regardless, it looks like its mainly up to the version of vienna I end up getting. I appreciate the help everyone, and if anyone else feels like chiming in with some input feel free.

If the vienna is 2-row I'm just gonna do a standard single infusion (probably 153). If its 6-row I'll do a protein rest at 131 for 15 min as that seems to be the general consensus. I'm looking for an easy drinker with a high repeatability, much like a goto. So if this is one that I determine I want to do more than once I will most certainly play around with the mash process.

 

[Beernik]

Weyermann is German, so I'd expect it to be 2 row.

Briess is US.

Muntons is UK.

Dingmans is Belgian.

Gambrinus is Canadian

The US, Mexico, and Canada grow 6 row. Mexico is all 6 row. US is split between them. Canada is mostly 2 row.