Vienna and Saaz SMaSH for no-sparge Bohemian Pilsner and single infusion?

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm contemplating a Bohemian Pilsner with 100% Vienna malt at 3.5L to recover some of the flavor and body/mouthfeel complexity lost when mashing straight Pilsner malt via single infusion vs. decoction.

For a 6 gallon yielding batch size (with close to 6.5 gallons to the fermenter), and with no sparge and no squeeze mashing, I plan to use 13 lbs. of straight Vienna malt mashed in 9 gallons of water.

I also plan to use good quality RO water and add to it only 1/5 gram of CaCl2 per gallon, so the mineralization will be very low and hop bitterness will hopefully be mellowed out by this as for Pilsner Urquell. Mash is planned for 60 minutes at 68 degrees C.

Hops are initially planned to be 18 grams of Magnum for 60 minutes of boil, 18 grams of Saaz for 20 minutes of boil, and 18 grams of Saaz for 10 minutes of boil time. Initial boil volume will be about 7.6 to 7.7 gallons. Shooting for ~40 IBU's.

Yeast will be WLP 800.

With straight Vienna malt the finished beer SRM appears to generally match Pilsner Urquell, sans that it will likely be more straw golden than the slightly orange/reddish golden hue that I perceive for Pilsner Urquell.

I've tried to capture the flavor complexity, mellow bitterness, and color of Pilsner Urquell using a grist of only Pilsner malt and Melanoidin Malt, but it fails to satisfy. What might I expect in this regard for my contemplated Vienna SMaSH Bohemian Pilsner?

 

[WestMichBrewer]

I'm contemplating a Bohemian Pilsner with 100% Vienna malt at 3.5L to recover some of the flavor and body/mouthfeel complexity lost when mashing straight Pilsner malt via single infusion vs. decoction.

I've tried to capture the flavor complexity, mellow bitterness, and color of Pilsner Urquell using a grist of only Pilsner malt and Melanoidin Malt, but it fails to satisfy. What might I expect in this regard for my contemplated Vienna SMaSH Bohemian Pilsner?

You will be making a Vienna Lager rather than a Bohemian Pils.
Quite a tasty brew for sure.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

True enough, but I always thought Vienna Lager was much more highly mineralized. And that its color is about twice as dark on the SRM scale, centering around 12 SRM.

 

[Iseneye]

Sounds like a good beer. What was your pilz basemalt? I'd be going for Weyermann pilsner if you want better flavour, if not using already. I would also add in a touch of carahell or carabohemian. If you're aiming for a Pilsner Urquell I think you'll miss the mark with a full Vienna beer.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I used Avangard Pilsner before. But now I've got a 25 Kg. bag of Swaen Pilsner malt to play with. I'm not sure if it's my technique or the Avangard, but I generally found my beers brewed with it to be dull.

 

[BigEd]

True enough, but I always thought Vienna Lager was much more highly mineralized. And that its color is about twice as dark on the SRM scale, centering around 12 SRM.

Vienna is or certainly was an almost extinct style. Perhaps you are looking at beers like Modelo Negra and Dos Equis Amber which are sort of Viennas and until recent years were about the only commercial products available that at least qualified in the category. What you will be making, IMO, is a hybrid; a Vienna beer with Pilsner-style hopping, but not a Pilsner in the true sense. That said I'm sure it will be very tasty but the kilning and flavor or Vienna malt, as good as it is, will not replace or duplicate the flavors of a decocted pilsner malt beer.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Part of the mouthfeel and complexity from a bopils comes from the diacetyl. I know it sounds silly but it makes a big difference.

 

[thehaze]

I love me some Vienna malt and Vienna Lagers. Vienna malt - for me - adds a nice toastiness, a bit of biscuit, dryness and some crispness, when used 90-1005 of the grain bill. It's not over the top biscuitty, but definitely an aroma and flavour I come to love, also in hop forward beers. Hops and Vienna malt go well together.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

True enough, but I always thought Vienna Lager was much more highly mineralized. And that its color is about twice as dark on the SRM scale, centering around 12 SRM.

The vienna lager I brewed recently shows to have an SRM of 8.5 in BrewersFriend.
It actually came out a bit darker than that though.
91% vienna
7% caramunich I
2% acidulated
Magnum bittering and Hallertau finishing
WY Munich Lager

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The vienna lager I brewed recently shows to have an SRM of 8.5 in BrewersFriend.
It actually came out a bit darker than that though.
91% vienna
7% caramunich I
2% acidulated
Magnum bittering and Hallertau finishing
WY Munich Lager

But Caramunich I is about 34 Lovibond. I think the final beer color will only hit about 5.6 SRM for a Vienna SMaSH.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

But Caramunich I is about 34 Lovibond. I think the final beer color will only hit about 5.6 SRM for a Vienna SMaSH.

True.
I have issues with the the various styles of lagers and recipes for them...they're all over the place.
Seems if a Bo Pils is brewed with a very high percentage of Vienna malt, it may no longer be a Bo Pils, even if the color is about right. I dunno...in the end it doesn't really matter as long as it tastes good.
Me, I would probably just call it something other than a Bo Pils if I used your recipe.
To me a BoPils IS pilsner malt, saaz hops and prototypical yeasts (or any lager brewed in Bohemia I suppose).
Outside of that and it can still be a great beer, just not a Bohemian Pilsner.

 

[filthyastronaut]

One thing to consider is that if you're in the states, the Pilsner Urquell may appear a bit darker than it should due to age/oxidation. I don't think it's possible to mimic a decoction with your grain bill, and you want a pils-malt character for the style, so I would still have the vast majority of the grain bill be pilsner, and adjust color and malt character with a Vienna/Munich malt and some carahell. It won't be the same as Urquell, but it will help you make a credible example of the style.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Based upon all of the above I've abandoned the Vienna SMaSH idea, and now my next attempt at a Bohemian Pilsner will be made as follows, using a no-sparge single infusion mash process, and mashing at 155 degrees F. in 9 gallons (34 L) of low mineralization Ersatz-Pilsen** water, as follows:

Swaen Pilsner malt: 11 Lbs. (5 Kg.)
Weyermann Munich Type I: 1.5 Lbs. (0.68 Kg.)
Swaen Melanoidin malt: 0.5 Lbs. (0.23 Kg.)
Acidulated Malt, 0.333 Lb. (0.15 Kg.)

Initial Boil volume = 7.6 US Gal. (28.75 L)
Post boil volume = 6.5 US Gal. (24.6 L) This is the volume to the Fermenter

~38 IBU of Hops:
--------------------
18 g. Magnum, 12.4% AA, 60 min boil
18 g. Sterling, 7.6% AA, 20 min boil
36 g. Saaz, 3.2% AA, 10 min boil

WLP 800 yeast @ 52 deg. F., Apparent Attenuation ~75%

~OG = 1.052
~FG = 1.013
~ABV = 5.25%
~SRM = 5.6 (~EBC = 11)

** Additions to make Ersatz-Pilsen Water (from distilled) for 9 gallons:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 g. Gypsum
0.45 g. CaCl2 (as the dihydrate form)
0.17 g. NaCl