Venturing into sours

[OpenSights]

I’m contemplating buying a 55 gallon bourbon barrel to start a sour. My club has one that’s been going for a few years. Basically the deal is take 1-5 gallons and replace it. I have 5 gallons of doppelbock with s-04 to exchange right now.... but...

While sours are not my favorite beer by any means, I do have respect for them and am starting to enjoy them more.

So I have a few questions before buying a barrel...

1. With such a large fermentation vessel, starting out, how much beer should I start it out with? Should I add my doppelbock and brew 1 ten gallon batch per weekend to fill it, or should I just start off with 5-15 gallons and see what direction it goes before brewing in quantity?

2. What kind of beer should I start with?

3. Is this a bad idea and should I stick with my club’s sour batch?

Here are some of the thoughts going through my head.... I love to brew more than I like to drink. For example, I have 4-5 mostly full kegs and a total of 44 gallons of beer, wine, and cider in fermenters. The oldest being about 6-8 months old. Having a barrel project will, at least for a short time alleviate my rate of brewing rate. (Mrs. Opensights is starting to get tired of fermenters scattered around the house in key temperature locations.)

I have two sources to get good used barrels that won’t leak.

Thanks in advance!

 

[RPh_Guy]

1. I'd try to fill it as fast as possible. You want to avoid too much headspace/oxygen and also avoid the barrel drying out.

2. Pale wort -- something like 70% pale malt and 30% wheat. Good for blending.

3. It might be better to run a clean batch or two through it first to strip some of the bourbon and oak flavors ... But that doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do. Maybe you could let it soak with some water first. ?

 

[Electricbrew]

Have you looked into kettle sours? Personally if you aren’t a huge fan of sours I would do a couple of those and see how you feel before investing the money and space into a barrel... they aren’t as complex as wild yeast sours but still good in my opinion. Just a thought

 

[OpenSights]

1. I'd try to fill it as fast as possible. You want to avoid too much headspace/oxygen and also avoid the barrel drying out.

2. Pale wort -- something like 70% pale malt and 30% wheat. Good for blending.

3. It might be better to run a clean batch or two through it first to strip some of the bourbon and oak flavors ... But that doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do. Maybe you could let it soak with some water first. ?

Drying out was something I was concerned about. If I went with DME I could fill it in one weekend easily. If I were to go AG I probably would have to wait for our next firebrew (club batch 150-200 gallons). But that’s usually a brown or dark... last one was the doppelbock for $30 for 5 gallons.

While I plan on adding the doppelbock, there are so many different beers in it, from light to dark.

 

[OpenSights]

Have you looked into kettle sours? Personally if you aren’t a huge fan of sours I would do a couple of those and see how you feel before investing the money and space into a barrel... they aren’t as complex as wild yeast sours but still good in my opinion. Just a thought

I forgot to add, my wife loves sours, however she might only drink one or two a week, probably the same as me.

I almost pulled the trigger on a 5 gallon new oak barrel for $120 (now sold out) but a leak proof used 55 gallon I can get for $95+ tax.

I have a good unused space in my basement for a barrel.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I went with DME I could fill it in one weekend easily.

Good idea, that's what I would do. You don't even need to boil it, just get it dissolved.

 

[OpenSights]

In a base for a sour, as in hops... what would you recommend? Or should I just look for the elusive recipe and plug it into BeerSmith. Haven’t found one yet...

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

In a base for a sour, as in hops... what would you recommend? Or should I just look for the elusive recipe and plug it into BeerSmith. Haven’t found one yet...

You don't need much for a first batch, but it's fun to play around with dry hopping them.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In a base for a sour, as in hops... what would you recommend? Or should I just look for the elusive recipe and plug it into BeerSmith. Haven’t found one yet...

Per 5 gallons: 0.2-0.4oz of noble hops.
So, to make 50 gallons use 2 to 4 ounces.

How does this sound? ...
Boil the hops in 5-10 gal of water for 60 minutes. Add all the DME at knockout ... Put that in the barrel once it dissolves and then top up with the remaining water.

 

[OpenSights]

Per 5 gallons: 0.2-0.4oz of noble hops.
So, to make 50 gallons use 2 to 4 ounces.

How does this sound? ...
Boil the hops in 5-10 gal of water for 60 minutes. Add all the DME at knockout ... Put that in the barrel once it dissolves and then top up with the remaining water.

I see what you did there! At least someone has their thinking cap on!

 

[OpenSights]

Per 5 gallons: 0.2-0.4oz of noble hops.
So, to make 50 gallons use 2 to 4 ounces.

How does this sound? ...
Boil the hops in 5-10 gal of water for 60 minutes. Add all the DME at knockout ... Put that in the barrel once it dissolves and then top up with the remaining water.

If this happens, should I put the hops in a sack or screen cylinder? I have both options available.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

I'm guessing the DME is for the purpose of keeping trub and any sort of solids making it into the barrel?

 

[OpenSights]

I'm guessing the DME is for the purpose of keeping trub and any sort of solids making it into the barrel?

That and brew time. Extract vs AG. Cuts out many hours and days of mashing AG!

 

[RPh_Guy]

If this happens, should I put the hops in a sack or screen cylinder? I have both options available.

I would do loose, but either way is fine.
Containing them tends to lower utilization.

Acid suppresses yeast expression, so the goal is to use enough hops to delay souring so both Sacc and Brett have had a chance for uninhibited ester production.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

I would do loose, but either way is fine.
Containing them tends to lower utilization.

Acid suppresses yeast expression, so the goal is to use enough hops to delay souring so both Sacc and Brett have had a chance for uninhibited ester production.

I tend to disagree with your first point but I'm curious about your second. The acid from the hops is what helps delay the souring long enough or is it pH that plays a more important role?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I tend to disagree with your first point but I'm curious about your second. The acid from the hops is what helps delay the souring long enough or is it pH that plays a more important role?

Low pH suppresses yeast expression.
Hops inhibit the bacteria that lower the pH. Specifically in this case, a low amount of hops will be enough to prevent Lacto or Pedio from dropping the pH too fast. Pedio will sour it over a long duration and the result will be a much more flavorful beer than if it were unhopped and soured immediately, before the yeast fermentation.
On the other hand, using too much hops will delay souring beyond what I'd consider a reasonable timeframe, or prevent it altogether.
The trick is finding the right hop amount for the particular bacteria you have. The amount I recommend should be good for commercial cultures and wild cultures. Dregs will probably be more aggressive so they should be added a little later, or you can increase the hops.

----
About lower hop utilization, I'm not going to argue that point; you can look that up elsewhere.

Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

1. I'd try to fill it as fast as possible. You want to avoid too much headspace/oxygen and also avoid the barrel drying out.

One angle you could take, too, if you aren't able to fill the entire barrel very quickly: brew multiple batches in short periods of time. As long as you're contributing wort to the barrel during an active fermentation, there shouldn't be too much extended "dry time" for the higher staves, and the persistent use of O2 and positive CO2 pressure (both from active fermentation) should prevent oxygen ingress.

Killer sours have for sure been made with some, if not all extract, though. With long-term aged sours, the malt character isn't necessarily featured, so you're allowed some wiggle-room there.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As long as you're contributing wort to the barrel during an active fermentation, there shouldn't be too much extended "dry time" for the higher staves, and the persistent use of O2 and positive CO2 pressure (both from active fermentation) should prevent oxygen ingress.

Excessive oxygen suppresses desirable ester formation, while encouraging acetic acid and ethyl acetate, both undesirable. THP would temporarily form.

You're right though, oxygen exposure would be limited if the first 10-20 gallons can adequately purge 35-45 gallons of headspace with CO2 production.
I've never heard of anyone doing it that way (extended incremental filling), so it just seems a little risky in my opinion.
Purging with a CO2 tank should help if you want to go that route.