Using water cooler jugs as carboys

[TheBeerBuddha]

Anybody ever use the water jugs from water coolers as carboys? I had an opportunity to buy some and passed because I wasn't sure.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

They can work in a pinch but better bottles or other pet fermenters aren't too expensive. The water bottles can be too small for 5 gallon batches and hard to clean.

 

[kombat]

Not to mention they're not certified to hold liquids containing alcohol. I'd be worried about chemical leeching.

 

[ruralbrew]

I have bought some 4 gallon bottles of water at Menards and used the bottles for cider. The bottles were PET and worked great as a fermenter.

 

[Trollheim]

Not to mention they're not certified to hold liquids containing alcohol. I'd be worried about chemical leeching.

The majority of commercial bottled water providers [Rocky Ridge, Culligan etc {in Canada}] use PET bottles which should be no different then better bottles or HDPE buckets.

I agree on the space issue though, most are 5g exactly [18.9ltr to nose].

The only other issue I can't help but bring up is scratches etc, most of those bottles are so over used and cleaned that unless you purchase brand new, I wouldn't trust them with my batch.

 

[soccerdad]

I have a 4 gallon BPA free water bottle (I think it was from Sams) that I use as a small batch carboy and it works fine. I would not want one of the 'built in handle' bottles as it would be too hard to clean inside that handle part.

 

[Curtis2010]

Look up a recent thread on this which discusses what the various plastic recycle codes mean. It may change your mind. Did mine.

 

[Trollheim]

Look up a recent thread on this which discusses what the various plastic recycle codes mean. It may change your mind. Did mine.

Well played sir, I just looked at 4 of my water jugs. Two were rated [1]{PET}, the other two were rated [7]{Other}. Even though the water center will recycle them, most municipalities won't take them, and the two that are [7] specifically say in 'small' print on the bottom that they are NOT to be used for any other liquid.

 

[soccerdad]

Mine is the same as my Better Bottles

 

[ericbw]

Well played sir, I just looked at 4 of my water jugs. Two were rated [1]{PET}, the other two were rated [7]{Other}. Even though the water center will recycle them, most municipalities won't take them, and the two that are [7] specifically say in 'small' print on the bottom that they are NOT to be used for any other liquid.

Does it say why they're not to be used for other liquid? Ever had soda in a plastic bottle? Beer in plastic bottles? Milk jugs?

I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it. But I'm asking what the reason is that it says only for water.

I wonder if it is a health issue or if it's because you shouldn't run juice through a water cooler. Or put carbonated beverages in it.

 

[m00ps]

I researched this before and I found out that only certain kinds of water jugs will work. Check the recycle # on the bottom. Anything that's 1 or 2 is OK if I remember right. Anything else and you risk the alcohol leaching out chemicals into your beer.

Theres a few topics floating around here if you want to be sure on the numbers

 

[z-bob]

I have bought some 4 gallon bottles of water at Menards and used the bottles for cider. The bottles were PET and worked great as a fermenter.

I have 3 gallons of Belgian dubbel fermenting in one of those right now. Gonna get a few more. If they get scratched up on the inside or start to smell, I can crush 'em and put them in the recycling bin.

 

[bernardsmith]

Does it say why they're not to be used for other liquid? Ever had soda in a plastic bottle? Beer in plastic bottles? Milk jugs?

I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it. But I'm asking what the reason is that it says only for water.

I wonder if it is a health issue or if it's because you shouldn't run juice through a water cooler. Or put carbonated beverages in it.

Not a chemist but water has a pH of about 7. Beer and wine have a pH considerably more acidic (around 3.5 for wine) and alcohol is a more powerful solvent than water, so while some plastics may not react to water it is possible that others may and they may leach chemicals into the beer or wine. Short term you may be OK with the risks involved. Longer term the risks may pose health problems, not to say problems of oxidation, as enough O2 may be able to pass through the walls to spoil your brew or wine in the course of a few months.

 

[Trollheim]

Does it say why they're not to be used for other liquid? Ever had soda in a plastic bottle? Beer in plastic bottles? Milk jugs?

I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it. But I'm asking what the reason is that it says only for water.

I wonder if it is a health issue or if it's because you shouldn't run juice through a water cooler. Or put carbonated beverages in it.

Your typical plastic bottle or milk jugs are [1]PET, [2]PEHD, or [4]PELD. These are all rated fine and are what your typical PEHD [HDPE] Fermenting Bucket or [PELD] Typical soda bottles.

Only the bottles rated [7]Other specified no other liquids, without knowing what they are made out of or why the manufacturer suggests otherwise there is no way of knowing.

Based on other posts I suspect acidity/alkalinity leaching chemicals from the plastic.

 

[TKWoody]

I sometimes use my leftover Simply Orange Juice containers when I want to do a small batch to experiment. (Ale yeast in one and lager yeast in the other with the same batch, etc.) Their recycle # is 1. I haven't had any problems yet.

As long as I'm buying orange juice anyways they're free. They're easy to shake up to aerate. Plus I don't have to clean them when done I can just toss them.

Tim

 

[TheBeerBuddha]

Thanks for the feedback. Glad I passed on them. It did state at the bottom Only for Water.

 

[Norselord]

Does it say why they're not to be used for other liquid? Ever had soda in a plastic bottle? Beer in plastic bottles? Milk jugs?

I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it. But I'm asking what the reason is that it says only for water.

I wonder if it is a health issue or if it's because you shouldn't run juice through a water cooler. Or put carbonated beverages in it.

Oxygen barrier.

Oxygen in water = good. Oxygen in milk/beer = bad.

 

[kombat]

This topic got me thinking, specifically about the issue of oxygen-permeability and plastic containers. "What about soda pop?" I asked myself. How does Coca-Cola keep their drinks from going flat in the millions (billions?) of bottles they produce and sell every year?

Then I remembered a Coke I bought at the vending machine a few weeks ago. It was almost completely flat. I thought it had probably been a bad batch. I checked the production date on the cap. It had expired over a year earlier. I dismissed it at the time, but now I wonder if maybe the same issue affects soft drink manufacturers, and it's merely less of an issue with them because they're sold relatively quickly after production. If you take a bottle of soda and sit on it for a year, it seems the CO2 will indeed eventually "bleed" out through the plastic.

 

[Trollheim]

This topic got me thinking, specifically about the issue of oxygen-permeability and plastic containers. "What about soda pop?" I asked myself. How does Coca-Cola keep their drinks from going flat in the millions (billions?) of bottles they produce and sell every year?

Then I remembered a Coke I bought at the vending machine a few weeks ago. It was almost completely flat. I thought it had probably been a bad batch. I checked the production date on the cap. It had expired over a year earlier. I dismissed it at the time, but now I wonder if maybe the same issue affects soft drink manufacturers, and it's merely less of an issue with them because they're sold relatively quickly after production. If you take a bottle of soda and sit on it for a year, it seems the CO2 will indeed eventually "bleed" out through the plastic.

Interesting point. I never thought about how the Coke went flat, only that it did. Almost any bottle close to, or after there 'Tastes Best Before' date will be flat and lacking flavor.

I always suspected it just lost carbonation, I never thought of where that carbonation went!

 

[DrunkleJon]

This topic got me thinking, specifically about the issue of oxygen-permeability and plastic containers. "What about soda pop?" I asked myself. How does Coca-Cola keep their drinks from going flat in the millions (billions?) of bottles they produce and sell every year?

Then I remembered a Coke I bought at the vending machine a few weeks ago. It was almost completely flat. I thought it had probably been a bad batch. I checked the production date on the cap. It had expired over a year earlier. I dismissed it at the time, but now I wonder if maybe the same issue affects soft drink manufacturers, and it's merely less of an issue with them because they're sold relatively quickly after production. If you take a bottle of soda and sit on it for a year, it seems the CO2 will indeed eventually "bleed" out through the plastic.

Hah, that explains the unopened 2liter (you remember the ones with the glued on base and round bottom?) of god knows what that was several years old that I found while cleaning out my grandmothers garage was not only flat, but actually was sucked in with negative pressure. I bet soda bottles are permable.

 

[Norselord]

This topic got me thinking, specifically about the issue of oxygen-permeability and plastic containers. "What about soda pop?" I asked myself. How does Coca-Cola keep their drinks from going flat in the millions (billions?) of bottles they produce and sell every year?

Then I remembered a Coke I bought at the vending machine a few weeks ago. It was almost completely flat. I thought it had probably been a bad batch. I checked the production date on the cap. It had expired over a year earlier. I dismissed it at the time, but now I wonder if maybe the same issue affects soft drink manufacturers, and it's merely less of an issue with them because they're sold relatively quickly after production. If you take a bottle of soda and sit on it for a year, it seems the CO2 will indeed eventually "bleed" out through the plastic.

The flux of gas across a barrier is dependent on a few factors, which includes but is not limited to:
1) the material of the barrier
2) the thickness of the barrier
3) the difference in pressure on either side of the barrier
4) the difference in concentration of the gas on either side of the barrier
5) the size and arrangment of the gaseous molecules
6) net ionic charge of the particle
7) van-der-waals forces

There is a difference between CO2 getting out of a pressurized soda bottle, and O2 getting into your fermenter. This is mainly due to the differences between points 3, 4, and 5 in the above.

The reason not to use water bottles as fermenters is:
* the cost to the manufacturer of creating the bottle is based on the amount of material, The amount of material is dependent on the sp.gr. of the fluid it will hold, and the amount of pressure it will be under. In order to keep costs down, and profits high. Water bottles are designed to hold a fluid of sp.gr. 1.0 and at atmospheric pressure. Not fluids that are 5-10% heavier and at higher pressures.
* water bottles are not designed to keep O2 from entering. Because the O2 in the water in the bottle is typically already in equilibrium with the atmospheric O2 (Henry's Law) and even if O2 gets into water its no big deal. O2 infiltration into beer is not desired.

P.S. I am exactly this much fun at parties.

 

[mkyl428]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJ11XetbUc[/ame]

 

[z-bob]

The reason not to use water bottles as fermenters is: [numbers added so I can address the points individually]
(1) the cost to the manufacturer of creating the bottle is based on the amount of material, The amount of material is dependent on the sp.gr. of the fluid it will hold, and the amount of pressure it will be under. In order to keep costs down, and profits high. Water bottles are designed to hold a fluid of sp.gr. 1.0 and at atmospheric pressure. Not fluids that are 5-10% heavier and at higher pressures.
(2) water bottles are not designed to keep O2 from entering. Because the O2 in the water in the bottle is typically already in equilibrium with the atmospheric O2 (Henry's Law) and even if O2 gets into water its no big deal. O2 infiltration into beer is not desired.
(3) I am exactly this much fun at parties.

(1) ...and withstand the rigors of shipping.
(2) I want a little O2 infiltration in my primary fermenter because I have a hard time getting enough oxygen in there for yeast health. I want to keep oxygen out of (and CO2 in) any bottles I'm using for long-term storage or beer or wine -- including secondary fermenters.
(3)

 

[ericbw]

I have two water bottles that are #7 and say they are only approved for water, do not refill with any other liquid.

I also have a container that is #7 and says BPA free, as well as saying to hand wash and use only for cold liquids. It is clearly intended to be used as a container for other non-water beverages (iced tea, juice, Kool-Aid, etc.), many of which have a lower pH than beer, I think. Since #7 plastic CAN safely contain acidic liquids (presumably), that is not the reason to not use them.

An orange Homer bucket is #2 (same as a brew bucket), but it's not food safe.

This is not in line with the notion that #7 is not intended for anything but water, and #2 or #1 is safe for food/beer. I don't think the recycle number is the best criteria.

I am 99% sure that the water company doesn't put that on the bottle because they are concerned about the oxygen getting in your beer.