Using Vodka For Cacao Nibs - How Much Is Enough / Too Much?

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DeToX

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Hey guys, I've been reading about this technique all over the place. Seems the general consensus is to "add enough vodka to cover them"...

My question is this - Does "enough to cover them" mean enough to just keep them wet, or enough to SOAK them?

I have a tick over 8oz of Nibs and a couple 'Nilla Beans in some tupperware w/ about 3/4 cup - 1 cup of Vodka (what I needed to "cover" them just about to the top of the pile).

Is that too much? Just Enough? Anyone noted a direct difference in taste because of the amount of Vodka?

It's for a 5 gal DBL Choc Milk Stout (All Grain)

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance
~Cheers
 
When I am putting nibs or oak in alcohol, I use a ziplock, put enough alcohol so no air gets in at all. Works awesome.

Reminds me, I wanted to do a Grand Marnier Cocoa Porter. Gotta add that to the list.

Vodka doesn't add much flavor, so 1 cup shouldn't matter, but it'll add to ABV a bit.
 
Cover the nibs with spirits, give them a shake to knock out any bubbles, and let the container set for a day. The next day add more spirits to re-cover, as the nibs will absorb quite a bit. I usually keep that going for four to five days before dumping the works into a carboy and racking my stout on top..

btw, for my chocolate stouts I switched to dark rum.
It adds a wonderfully complementary note...

Cheers!
 
My first time, I used 4oz nibs in 3/4cup of vodka. I put this mixture in a mason jar and shoot it a few times a day for about a week. As dat trippr said, they will absorb some liquid, so I got a lite less than 4fl oz of my cocoa tincture when I was all said and done. Added that to my choc milk stout and it's pretty damn tasty. The chocolate is evident.

My second time around, I added 1 cup of vodka (opposed to 3/4 cup) to 4oz nibs with the same process. With better straining, I got 6floz which I split into two 3oz containers that I can use in two different batches when needed


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Fantastic! Thanks for the input. The nibs did absorb quite a bit as you all mentioned.

It's been sitting for about a week or so and I'm in no rush to add the concoction since I want the stout to mature as needed. From the sounds of it, once the nibs & juice is added it only needs about a week or so to really pick up the flavor, so I want the stout right first.

I guess I have a pretty good extract on my hands then, and sounds like I did it right.

Thanks
 
Let me run this by you guys...

My Tincture, if you will, has been sitting for a couple weeks waiting on the stout. I went to taste it today (the tincture) and it is awfully bitter. Chocolate taste is strong, but its sharp. Not like cheap vodka sharp, but bitter chocolate sharp.

Is this how it's supposed to be, or am I past the point of adding this to the beer and on my way to next years chocolate extract? I have read posts of guys that added nibs directly to the secondary w/o the vodka soak, then racking in a few days as to avoid the "bitter" that nibs develop.

I worry about the bitterness being added to a fairly bitter stout coming out a bit too strong (I'm not a bitter beer fan).

Nibs are readily available at a local shop so it's not a big deal either way if I need to get a fresh batch.

What do you think? Screw it and toss the tincture in there (nibs and all) and just deal with it, or get another half pound, soak them over night to "clean" them and go that route?
 
DeTox,

From my link,

The problem is the bitter nature - cacao (and chocolate) contains tannin and other alkaloids that simultaneously are good for you and terrible tasting. Hence the sugar in prepared chocolate. If you soak cacao nibs as a secondary addition, you have to be Johnny on the Spot to avoid extract too many of these alkaloids. Too many and your beer is harsh. (I've done this before and rescued it with a 750ml bottle of cheap Raspberry liqueur - the beer was actually really awesome with that addition). The magic point seems to be about 2 weeks.

--
I have done 2 weeks in the beer directly, with decent results, but I think Drews tincture sounds like a better idea and it only takes 4 days, and you can eye drop into a similar commercial beer (or a flat hydrometer sample) to multiply up the dose.
 
I'll go grab another half pound, soak them over night and add them in and do it that way. I will follow the process with the mix I have now and strain, put in the freezer, scrape the gunk off and store. Then I can use it next year.

Thanks for the follow up response.

Cheers
 
Does soaking them for too long make a difference? I've had them soaking for 5 days now. Looking to use them today, but with a little less vodka (I think I put too much in).

Also, do you have to go the freezing method and scrape out the fat or can I just rack over everything?

Thanks!
 
professorxxl said:
Does soaking them for too long make a difference? I've had them soaking for 5 days now. Looking to use them today, but with a little less vodka (I think I put too much in).

Also, do you have to go the freezing method and scrape out the fat or can I just rack over everything?

Thanks!
Click to expand...


I tried freezing my solution and scraping off the fat, but it didn't really go well. It was more of congealed/slushy pellets. So I just let it warm back up and pitched the solution as is. Beer turned out great


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Sounds like I may be a bit too late to respond, but here's what I did with mine since my original post -

My original Tincture (1.5 whole vanilla beans, 8 oz of fresh nibs & 8 oz+ of vodka) was too bitter tasting for my liking. It seems that the long soak started to extract the alkolines (sp?) that were discussed in the link provided on page 1. I let it all meld in some tupperware for about 10-14 days, and it was just not what I was looking for. More bitter chocolate, then soft chocolate, if that makes sense.

So, What I did is grab another 1/2 of fresh nibs, soaked them over night in 4 oz vodka & 4 oz of Makers Mark (I had it on hand & I drank too much of the Vodka the night before), then tossed the whole bit into the Secondary the next morning. I honestly don't think the choice of liquor will really make that big of a difference in that small of an amount.

It has been 2 days and a few hours now since I added the NEW tincture, and it is coming along very nicely. The chocolate is starting to come through on the nose. It is starting to soften the beer out. What I mean by that is it is taking some of the hop bitter and toning it down, and the chocolate flavor is forming on the back end. It still needs a few days, but this is definitely the way to go when adding Cacao nibs. Short soak in liquor to sanitize (and up ABV an notch) and add it all in after a day or so. Keep checking every couple days until you get the desired profile, and go from there.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
 
Update for What It's Worth:

I poured my overnight tincture (nibs and all) into my secondary Sunday. Today is Thursday (4.5-5 days total) and the beer just started picking up those bitter alkolines(sp?). So, I racked over to another carboy to get them off the nibs.

Seems that 4-5 day soaks, either in your beer or while making a tincture, is the sweet spot to pick up a good chocolate taste/aroma without starting to infuse all the bitter alkoline(sp?) that develop.

Cheers
 
I read you can do the same for coffee. I have a java stout to brew - is 4-5 days in a glass jar with some vodka reasonable or do coffee beans take more/less time.

I heard the best way to get the taste is doing the vodka extract or cold brew them to keep the bitterness down?
 
grrickar said:
I read you can do the same for coffee. I have a java stout to brew - is 4-5 days in a glass jar with some vodka reasonable or do coffee beans take more/less time.



I heard the best way to get the taste is doing the vodka extract or cold brew them to keep the bitterness down?
Click to expand...


I've personally had the best experience for coffee by "dry hopping" with course my crushed beans for a few days. I've never gotten any bitterness from it.


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Probably a silly question, but I'm making a tincture using the instructions on the site linked above (the "Drew Way"). He mentioned toasted cocoa nibs so, not knowing if mine were or not, I toasted them until they smelled nice and then dumped them and then the vodka on top in a mason jar. Will it matter that I forgot that they were still hot when I did that? Will the vodka produce weird flavors or oxidize or who knows what because they were hot or does it make no difference? I'm not terribly worried, but it would be a silly thing to mess up a batch of beer over. I'll try to go by taste on day 4, but not sure if I'll be able to tell from unsweetened, plain cocoa nib extract.
 
I wouldn't lose a wink over this.
If anything, you may have increased the cocoa extract, which is A Good Thing.

fwiw, I suspect that unless a package is plainly labelled "Raw" that nibs have been roasted already.
Could be wrong, but all the packages I've bought over the years clearly contained roasted/processed nibs...

Cheers! :mug:

[edit/ps] There is no sugar added to nibs, they are exactly what comes out of the bean, with a bit of physical processing.
Cocoa by nature is quite bitter, so don't be looking for Hershey bars in the extract...
 
Thanks for the response! Lot's of good info. I'll feel more comfortable when I toss in the extract this weekend! :mug:
 
Instead of using spirits... simply "pasteurize" them. Put them on a clean cookie sheet and roast them at 200 for an hour. The temp really won't be hot enough to roast them any more and they'll get up over 175 long enough to kill off any significany bacteria etc.
 
I covered a red solo cup with foil and depressed the foil into the opening a bit, poked many tiny holes with a pin in the foil, then just slowly pour the nibs/liquid on top of the solo cup covered foil. Once its all done just peel the foil up and throw it away and now you have a clean plastic cup full of the strained liquid.
 
I soak mine in a mason jar. When I am ready to strain out the nibs, I sanitize a section of panty hose and cover the head of the mason jar. Works really well. My first attempt at straining, I used a coffee filter. That method didnt work as so well for me
 
I just did this and it came out wonderfull. .I put the nibs in a solo cup with just enough vodka to cover them then covered the cup with foil..then I dumped it vodka and all into the secondary and racked on top of it.
 
Cape Brewing said:
Instead of using spirits... simply "pasteurize" them. Put them on a clean cookie sheet and roast them at 200 for an hour. The temp really won't be hot enough to roast them any more and they'll get up over 175 long enough to kill off any significany bacteria etc.
Click to expand...

It's not about killing anything really, it's all about the extract.

You'd think a pro brewer would have known that...

Cheers! ;)
 
day_trippr said:
It's not about killing anything really, it's all about the extract.



You'd think a pro brewer would have known that...



Cheers! ;)
Click to expand...


Right... But when you add the nibs to the stout and "dry nib" it... You'll "extract" the flavors you're looking for. Only without the vodka.

And it is about killing things... You use the vodka's abv (or heat as I am suggesting) to sterilize the nibs or else you're looking at a much higher risk of infection.

Using vodka is much more about sterilization than it is creating an extract... and if you are thinking about it the other way around... you're doing it wrong.

Man... It's like brewin' with my sister's kids 'round here.


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So basically we have several methods and work around..sounds like experiment time.. Cheers..
 
lolznrofls said:
So basically we have several methods and work around..sounds like experiment time.. Cheers..
Click to expand...


I think they'll both get you to basically the same place. It is just a matter of personal preference.

For me, personally, I don't like adding vodka to my beer. And on any kind of scale, using vodka becomes impractical very quickly. You're not going to have 55 gallon drums lined up full of vodka and cocao nibs. The options are to simply toss the nibs into secondary and risk infection, or try to sanitize them by some other means. Heat is a common one.

For homebrew scale batches... using spirits to sanitize works. So does Sodium Metabisulfite and a few others. Heat is simply another option.

Like I was saying though... It is about sanitation, not extraction... and I think if you do a side by side experiment... You won't taste the difference.


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I'll have some results to post up in a few weeks.

I ordered a Java Stout extract kit and I crushed the coffee beans with a rolling pin and dumped them in a mason jar, then covered them in vodka. I left both covered for about 3 days, and I would give them a shake every now and again. I did the same thing with cacao nibs.

I did not do it to sanitize, but to make a coffee and cocoa 'liquor' to toss in the secondary. The kit instructions stated to brew the coffee strong for best results, and this should be super-concentrated.

I doubt vodka (in the volume we are talking about) will impart much taste, and will boost the ABV a tiny bit I suppose. I have maybe 8oz of each liqour to play around with.

The Java Stout went into the primary today...will toss in the liquor in the secondary in a week or two.
 
"Allow me to retort" ;)

The reason I started making "nib extract" had nothing to do with infection avoidance. I've never had an infected batch of anything so that wasn't the issue.

What happened was I had a couple of pours of kegged Young's Double Chocolate Stout and was in heaven (the canned version is nothing like the kegged brew, btw). The intensity of the chocolate was incredible compared to what I'd been achieving by just dumping roasted nibs in the fermenter for a couple/few weeks.

The choice was to use more nibs - or think about how to increase extraction. A bit of reading convinced me to try spirits and I've never looked back. Same amount of nibs, but far more chocolate presence up front, in the middle, and the finish.

Aaaand I switched to using dark rum instead of vodka about five batches ago and will stick with that. The character addition is totally sympatico...

Cheers!

ps: A vanilla bean added to the soaking nibs definitely boosts the apparent chocolate intensity...
 
Retort away... like I said... They are all personal preferences and different options. If YOU have never had an infection and that's how/why YOU do it.... Awesome. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and if get good results, great. Folks should try it and see what results they like. That said, I think simply saying, "i've never had an infection so I'm just gonna toss this in my beer" is a mistake... which is why I was saying, in general, soaking in vodka is recommended for sanitation and not extraction. If you do it the other way around, awesome. That's not wrong in any way.

All I was saying was there are other options.

I don't think any commercially available beers that use nibs, oak chips, any fruit, or any other flavor "additive" is setting up massive drums of vodka/"additive" mix in order to extract flavor though. Does that matter for home brewed batches? Not particularly since the scale allows it. All I am saying is that there are other ways to do it and "it" is sterilizing the additive instead of extraction.

Will hard liquor extract flavors better? Maybe. I'm certainly not an expert on that topic but I'm a little skeptical from my experiences. That doesn't at all mean it's not true, it just means I, personally, haven't seen that. I have made all sorts of beers where I have used heat to sterilize (vanilla beans, cacao nibs, etc with dry heat and peaches and other fruit with controller pasteurization) and those beers have never been infected and I've never had a problem with extraction.

.... It's just a different option.
 
Yeah..what he said..i only have one chocolate beer under my belt..I do think toasting the nibs also helps with the flavor..atleast my house smelled great..Cheers!
 
Cape Brewing said:
Will hard liquor extract flavors better? Maybe.
Click to expand...

FWIW, my wife makes her own vanilla extract instead of buying it at the store, and she uses it for cooking tons of stuff. She simply takes organic vanilla beans and slits them with a knife, then pops them in a 750ml of vodka. Actually, I may toss some of that into a brew someday...

Could she extract it some other way? Sure - but popping some beans in vodka and being patient isn't a bad way to go either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_extract

It's how the pros do it: "Pure vanilla extract is made by macerating and percolating vanilla beans in a solution of ethyl alcohol and water."

Why alcohol? Because it extracts compounds out that aren't water soluable. Ethanol is able to dissolve substances which are less soluble in water, while at the same time the water content can dissolve the substances less soluble in ethanol. A win-win I guess you could say...

I would imagine that you could 'cold brew' coffee with alcohol at room temp far stronger than you could with hot water, since alcohol would be more efficient. Brewing the coffee longer would make it more bitter, not so with the vodka method. Medicinal tinctures are also made primarily with some type of alcohol.

Lots of folks make vanilla extract that way too: https://www.beanilla.com/blog/homemade-vanilla-extract

If you have bought vanilla extract in those tiny bottles, you will find that this is far cheaper to make your own. A little extract goes a long way, so a 55 gallon drum of the stuff would probably last quite a while.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who works in a microbrewery as to how they create the flavors they add...

Most extracts have alcohol as their primary ingredient, and I don't see it being for sanitation reasons, but for the reasons I stated above. Soaking coffee (of cacao nibs) in water versus spirits will produce a weaker solution (all other variables being equal).

Of course brewing and cooking are two different things, since the alcohol generally cooks off in baking, etc.

I still think that pitching small amounts of homemade extract into a secondary is fine. It's not like we're putting 750ml of flavored vodka in a 5 gallon batch.

I'm sure the alcohol in the secondary will do the same, only requiring more of of whatever you are extracting from (as in more coffee beans/nibs/etc)
 
I just did the Stone Bitter Chocolate Oatmeal Stout (AG) and put the nibs directly in the boil.
Just out it on tap- outstanding!!
 
govner1 said:
I just did the Stone Bitter Chocolate Oatmeal Stout (AG) and put the nibs directly in the boil.
Just out it on tap- outstanding!!
Click to expand...


There's another option...

I would think adding to the boil would pull acrid bitter from the nibs but that is based on nothing but a guess as I've never tried it... but if it works and gives good results... Sure, that's another option.
 

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