Using up pre-hopped extract--bad idea or go for it?

[DIYer]

My first and currently only batch of beer was made from 1/2 a can of Muntons Wheat Beer (a pre-hopped can of LME) with a pound of light DME added (for a 2.5 gallon batch). I bottled it about 10 days ago, so I haven't tasted it since then, but at bottling time, it seemed too bitter for such a supposedly low-hopped wheat beer. I don't like hops, so that was disappointing. The fermentation went well, kept around 68-70F, so I don't think anything went wrong there. I am just very sensitive to hoppiness I guess.

Anyway, I am considering the following recipe for using up the second half of the canned LME, hoping for more malt flavor to override the hops:

2.5 gallon batch:
1/2 can (2 lbs) Muntons Wheat LME (pre-hopped)
1 lb Briess traditional dark DME
1 lb Crisp chocolate malt (steeped)
Yeast: Munich Classic (dry)

I have all these ingredients on hand because I was already planning to use the dark DME instead of light in the second batch for comparison, but then I won the chocolate malt at a HB club raffle last night, so it just occurred to me to add that too. I also have a pound of light DME I could throw in if that would not be too much.

Alternatively, do you have any other suggestions for how to use this LME to make something less hoppy? Or is it a lost cause and I should just toss the second half of the canned LME?

 

[IslandLizard]

When did you add the hopped extract?
Did you boil after adding it?

 

[DIYer]

When did you add the hopped extract?
Did you boil after adding it?

Yes, but only for 10 minutes, following a basic brewing instruction sheet given to me by the LHBS when I bought the LME. It said to heat the water to 170F, turn off flame, add LME and DME, return to heat, and boil 10 min.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, but only for 10 minutes, following a basic brewing instruction sheet given to me by the LHBS when I bought the LME. It said to heat the water to 170F, turn off flame, add LME and DME, return to heat, and boil 10 min.

Hopped extracts contain bittering compounds as well as leftover oils from flavor and aroma hops. Heating those dissolved hopped extracts (wort) above 150F and the time that wort spends above 150F will cause extra bitterness, while sacrificing hop flavor and hop aroma. The higher the temps, the faster the bitterness reactions will be. Even 10-15 minutes between 190 and 212F can cause a lot of extra bitterness.

When using hopped extracts, you don't need to boil your wort, the right amount of bittering and hop flavor (according to the manufacturer) is in there already.

1. First add and dissolve your unhopped extracts in 170F water
2. Stir to aid the dissolving process (scrape the bottom)
3. But don't whip/beat air into it
   
4. Reheat to 160F under constant stirring
5. Keep at 160F for 5-10 minutes to pasteurize

Do the following steps as quickly as possible to prevent extra bitterness from developing:

1. Dissolve your hopped extract in that wort
2. Stir well until all is dissolved (scrape the bottom)
3. Again, don't whip/beat air into it
4. The temp should drop to around 150F
5. If it's under 150F heat back up to 150F under constant stirring (scrape the bottom)
6. Do not reheat if it's at 150F or above
7. Leave for 5 minutes at 150F to re-pasteurize
8. If you're adding top up water, this is the best time to do that. Ice cold water will get that temp down quickly
9. Otherwise, chill down immediately and as fast as you can

Also, don't rack to secondary after xx days. That's not needed, it's old hat and a bad one, leave where it is until ready to bottle.

 

[mongoose33]

Since you're apparently interested in brewing, if it were me, I think I'd go in a different direction. I'll bet the LME is already having problems, and fresh ingredients are a requirement for excellent beer.

And about hops: A lot of people think "hoppy" is equivalent to "bitter," which at one level it might be.

But you can brew, and buy, beers where the focus is on hop flavor and aroma, and NOT on bitterness.

I also do not like overly bitter beers, especially the ones where it seems like they're taking the enamel off your teeth. But recipes that dial down the bitterness in favor of hop aroma and flavor? Love 'em.

A pre-hopped recipe is going to have the hop focus on bitterness, not flavor or aroma, so don't go by what you're seeing here.

And, BTW, welcome!

 

[DIYer]

IslandLizard, thanks for the tips about temps and when to add the LME. I will definitely incorporate that for the second batch. And I didn't rack to secondary on the first batch, just left in primary until bottling.

Any thoughts on the proposed ingredient list I mentioned? Looking at the dunkel kit that just arrived on my doorstep (which contains only 8 oz choc malt for 5 gal), I'm guessing using the whole pound for a 2.5-gal batch with the rest of the LME would be way too much. LOL I tried using the brewer's friend recipe calculator, but it doesn't have this LME as an option, and I didn't know what to choose instead that was close.

Mongoose33, I appreciate the suggestion for hops in future batches (and thanks for the welcome!), but right now I'm just looking for suggestions on how to handle the LME I have. Are you on the side of "just toss it" because nothing will help reduce the bitterness already in it? I thought IslandLizard's suggestions on temp seemed worth trying..

 

[mongoose33]

IslandLizard, thanks for the tips about temps and when to add the LME. I will definitely incorporate that for the second batch. And I didn't rack to secondary on the first batch, just left in primary until bottling.

Any thoughts on the proposed ingredient list I mentioned? Looking at the dunkel kit that just arrived on my doorstep (which contains only 8 oz choc malt for 5 gal), I'm guessing using the whole pound for a 2.5-gal batch with the rest of the LME would be way too much. LOL I tried using the brewer's friend recipe calculator, but it doesn't have this LME as an option, and I didn't know what to choose instead that was close.

Mongoose33, I appreciate the suggestion for hops in future batches (and thanks for the welcome!), but right now I'm just looking for suggestions on how to handle the LME I have. Are you on the side of "just toss it" because nothing will help reduce the bitterness already in it? I thought IslandLizard's suggestions on temp seemed worth trying..

I have an approach with people new to brewing--I think they should be set up for success, not for whatever else might come.

That's why I think new brewers should brew simple but good recipes so they can learn the processes. That includes using good ingredients. What you have I would not tend to classify as "good." Rather, they're a convenience, but one you've already determined has issues.

One is the use of LME, especially pre-hoppd LME. You can try to dilute it, I suppose, but then what? And you can add some other malt or crushed grain via steeping, but all this is just, IMO, swinging a dead cat by the tail in hopes you hit something.

Now, I get the issue with wasting things. Nobody wants to waste ingredients. But to me, the best move for new brewers is to brew known good recipes with known good ingredients using known good processes. If you use chancy ingredients and the beer doesn't turn out, was it due to bad ingredients, a recipe that didn't combine them effectively, or a mistake in the process? You can't know, and that both stalls the learning process as well as producing a poor outcome. Ick.

I'm not trying to beat you down with this--there's a certain respect I can give you for being willing to try to see what will happen, and if that's your predilection, well, why not? Brewing should be fun, and perhaps your enjoyment of it might be related to trying out stuff. So be it.

But if what you want is good beer, I'm not confident this approach is likely to produce it. My 2 cents.

Anyway, good luck with it either way, and let us know what you do and how it turned out.

 

[DIYer]

That's why I think new brewers should brew simple but good recipes so they can learn the processes. That includes using good ingredients. What you have I would not tend to classify as "good." Rather, they're a convenience, but one you've already determined has issues.
...
Now, I get the issue with wasting things. Nobody wants to waste ingredients. But to me, the best move for new brewers is to brew known good recipes with known good ingredients using known good processes. If you use chancy ingredients and the beer doesn't turn out, was it due to bad ingredients, a recipe that didn't combine them effectively, or a mistake in the process? You can't know, and that both stalls the learning process as well as producing a poor outcome. Ick.
...
Brewing should be fun, and perhaps your enjoyment of it might be related to trying out stuff. So be it.

But if what you want is good beer, I'm not confident this approach is likely to produce it. My 2 cents.

Anyway, good luck with it either way, and let us know what you do and how it turned out.

I really appreciate the time you took to explain your thoughts further. I am obviously torn between wanting a decent outcome and not wanting to waste a purchase. I thought maybe it could become, if not "good," at least more to my liking (this kit actually has good reviews, which is why I decided to try it for my first attempt). But I totally get where you are coming from regarding quality ingredients = quality beer (I am 100% that way with my food ingredients).

I'm still on the fence...will probably wait until I taste the batch that's in the bottles in another week or two. If I still don't like it, you're most likely right and it's not worth wasting time and brewing space on another batch with it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I doubt Muntons pre-hopped can of Wheat LME will produce very bitter or overly hoppy beer, if used according to their instructions. Wheat beers are not very bitter, and most traditional ones are not very hoppy either.
Did you follow their instructions? If so, could you post a legible picture of that sheet? I'm curious.

As to use the remainder of the can, that's your call. But let's first determine if anything else went wrong in the process.

I would use no more than a quarter pound (1/4 lb) of the Crisp chocolate malt (steeped in 150-155 F water before adding extracts) in addition to the pound of dark DME. Sort of a Dunkelweizen, given the yeast you're using. That Chocolate malt is crushed, I hope.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Briess traditional dark DME

Did you know that Briess provides an ingredient list for many of their DME / LME products at http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm ?

For example, Briess Traditional Dark (http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#TraditionalDark) is "54% Munich Malt 10L, 30% Base Malt (two-row brewers malt?), 13% Caramel Malt 60L, 3% Black Malt".

You can follow the various links to individual product information sheets.

There's also a link to a summary chart (PDF) here: http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm

 

[Soulshine2]

I also do not like overly bitter beers, especially the ones where it seems like they're taking the enamel off your teeth. But recipes that dial down the bitterness in favor of hop aroma and flavor? Love 'em.

excellent description.

 

[DIYer]

Did you follow their instructions? If so, could you post a legible picture of that sheet? I'm curious.
...
I would use no more than a quarter pound (1/4 lb) of the Crisp chocolate malt (steeped in 150-155 F water before adding extracts) in addition to the pound of dark DME. Sort of a Dunkelweizen, given the yeast you're using. That Chocolate malt is crushed, I hope.

As I said in my answer to your first question, I followed an instruction sheet given to me by my LHBS, not the one that came with the kit. Those LHBS instructions included a short boil (10 min).

Thanks for the recommendation on the amount of chocolate malt to use. A dunkel-esque style is what I was going for with that addition. And it is not crushed now, but I am aware that it needs to be. I have to pick up a wine kit at the LHBS soon, so I plan to take it in and ask if they will run it thru their mill for me.

 

[DIYer]

Did you know that Briess provides an ingredient list for many of their DME / LME products at http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm ?

For example, Briess Traditional Dark (http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#TraditionalDark) is "54% Munich Malt 10L, 30% Base Malt (two-row brewers malt?), 13% Caramel Malt 60L, 3% Black Malt".

You can follow the various links to individual product information sheets.

There's also a link to a summary chart (PDF) here: http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm

Thanks, good to know! But it's actually the Muntons LME that I don't know the composition of (it is both wheat and barley, but don't know the percentages).

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks, good to know! But it's actually the Muntons LME that I don't know the composition of (it is both wheat and barley, but don't know the percentages).

It's probably a proprietary formulation, but the info may be on the can. Now to call it "wheat" the extract (LME) should contain at least 50% wheat, but who knows, huh? It doesn't matter that much, it's not that critical, you're still brewing beer. Briess Bavarian Wheat DME is 65% Wheat, 35% Barley.

As I said in my answer to your first question, I followed an instruction sheet given to me by my LHBS, not the one that came with the kit. Those LHBS instructions included a short boil (10 min).

From images I saw online there are basic instructions on the side of the can. There should be a more detailed instruction sheet under the cap.
The heating to a boil, then boiling for 10' and the time it takes to chill it down is definitely the wrong method for hopped extracts.
I am wondering what temperature the manufacturer recommends to dissolve and pasteurize the extract without changing the flavor and bitterness profile of the resulting beer.

I'd stay away from pre-hopped extracts for future brews, they are too limited, while the quality of the resulting beer is mediocre at best. Like @mongoose33 said, brewing with real hops is the best way.

 

[DIYer]

I'd stay away from pre-hopped extracts for future brews, they are too limited, while the quality of the resulting beer is mediocre at best.

Yes, I've definitely learned my lesson on that. I'm going to put one of the bottles of the first batch in the fridge this weekend (after 2 weeks in the bottle) and see how it is. Hopefully, it's drinkable! I'm certainly not hoping for great at this point.

 

[DIYer]

Update: Just opened the first bottle from the first batch for a taste, and the bitterness I tasted at bottling has definitely mellowed. It's well carbonated and has a semi-decent head on it (doesn't last long though). The beer itself is a bit thin, but that's my fault. I believed the can, which said it made 6 gallons. I made half, so used 3 gallons of water. I should have done only 2.5.

With a slice of lemon squeezed in, it is drinkable. Great, absolutely not. I probably wouldn't even call it good, but it's not "pour down the drain" material, so being my first attempt and all, I'm considering it a success.

Thanks again to everyone for the input in this thread--it will help the next one better!

 

[IslandLizard]

Update: Just opened the first bottle from the first batch...

Congrats! That looks pretty decent!

Not only will your current bottles get better, you now have a good reference of what to aim for on your next brew. Carbonation has a huge effect on mouthfeel and the overall beer sensation and enjoyment. With time and experience you will be much better able to envision what a mostly flat, green beer from a fermenter will taste like 3-6 weeks later from a conditioned and carbonated bottle.

Your next beer will be much better!
Just clean thoroughly and sanitize everything well that's "on the cold side," IOW, whatever touches your chilled wort and beer, before filling the fermenter with your next batch.

 

[RM-MN]

Update: Just opened the first bottle from the first batch for a taste, and the bitterness I tasted at bottling has definitely mellowed. It's well carbonated and has a semi-decent head on it (doesn't last long though). The beer itself is a bit thin, but that's my fault. I believed the can, which said it made 6 gallons. I made half, so used 3 gallons of water. I should have done only 2.5.

With a slice of lemon squeezed in, it is drinkable. Great, absolutely not. I probably wouldn't even call it good, but it's not "pour down the drain" material, so being my first attempt and all, I'm considering it a success.

Thanks again to everyone for the input in this thread--it will help the next one better!

View attachment 631672

Head retention may improve with more time. My beers react that way. They also improve in taste and apparent body. Be patient with beer, it improves with some age.

As an aside, I often open a bottle after only one week. It gives me a better idea of what the beer will turn into than just the hydrometer sample at bottling time. I have opened a bottle at 2 days, one of which was in the refrigerator. I was surprised to find good carbonation but the head was gone very quickly.