Using LME

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
S

Sailor323

Member
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
11
Reaction score
2
As I mentioned in my introductory post, 35 or so years ago I made what I considered a decent brew with Blue Ribbon LME. I used one 3 lb can, additional water, brown sugar and some other minor ingredients to make a 5 gallon batch. I recently started a batch of ale with a 3 pound container of LME. I used it straight, no added water beyond the amount needed to bring up the SG to 1.054 or so. 2 questions 1) Is it possible to extend the extract with sugar and water? I suspect I already know the answer to this, just wondering. Second question, most recipes that I came across include the instruction to boil the water extract mixture for 60 minutes. Other instructions say that hold the mixture at 160 degrees for 15 minutes (pasteurization temp and time). Is it really necessary to boil it at all?
 
Pre-hopped extracts should never be boiled. So make sure what kind of LME you have there.

It's surely not necessary to boil (unhopped) malt extracts (i.e., LME or DME) either. Adding to hot or boiling water and keeping at pasteurization temps of 150-160F for 15-20 minutes is plenty. IMO, it tastes better if not boiled for an hour.

Extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils with top up water in the fermenter, should boil no more than half (less is even better) and add the remainder at flameout. This to prevent overly caramelizing the wort, unless you brew Scottish Ales or Barleywines.

When you're not using pre-hopped extracts, you do need to boil the hops to get bittering. A 30-60' boil is fine to get your IBUs. Either boil in water or a low gravity wort, again adding your extracts or the remainder at flameout.

If you're steeping grains, you could do so while heating before the boil, and boil the resulting potion/wort (after removing the grains) for 30-60'.

Or steep on the side and add the steeped potion later and pasteurize at 150-160F for 15-20'. I often do that with dark grains (add after the boil, when it has chilled to 170F) as I think they taste better/fresher when not boiled for an hour.
 
Tks, Island Lizard. I kind of thought the same. I'm using non-hopped extract and I'm not adding hops to it.
 
Sailor323 said:
Tks, Island Lizard. I kind of thought the same. I'm using non-hopped extract and I'm not adding hops to it.
Click to expand...
VikeMan said:
What kind of beer are you making without hops?
Click to expand...
My thoughts too, what kind of "beer" is that?

Beer consists of 4 main ingredients:
  1. Water
  2. Malt (or grain)
  3. Hops
  4. Yeast
 
So to prevent a boil over, I could technically boil my hop additions for however long, then add my LME at 15 or flameout?
That would be so easy if that is what you're saying.

I was just thinking to myself, why would I need to boil LME for an hour if it's already extracted sugar from malt?
 
dnr said:
So to prevent a boil over, I could technically boil my hop additions for however long, then add my LME at 15 or flameout?
That would be so easy if that is what you're saying.

I was just thinking to myself, why would I need to boil LME for an hour if it's already extracted sugar from malt?
Click to expand...
That's what I understand:
  • There is no need to boil LME or DME (or heat beyond pasteurization).
  • Hops do not need to be boiled in wort, they can be boiled (or steeped) in plain water. The slightly higher pH of water (compared to wort) helps with better extraction and isomerization, while the lower gravity (no sugars present) increases hop utilization.
In some cases where extra wort caramelization is desired, boiling for extended time will help. The more concentrated the wort, the more caramelization and Maillard reactions take place.*

* I always use wort for making sugar syrups, not water.
 
IslandLizard said:
My thoughts too, what kind of "beer" is that?

Beer consists of 4 main ingredients:
  1. Water
  2. Malt (or grain)
  3. Hops
  4. Yeast
Click to expand...
I get it. I recently made an all grain beer, an American ale. My wife doesn't like a hopped beer like that or IPAs. So, I thought I'd try this. I don't have a great deal of hope. Looking at my recipes from 35 years ago using Blue Ribbon, I see that the extract was hopped. At any rate, I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.
 
Sailor323 said:
I get it. I recently made an all grain beer, an American ale. My wife doesn't like a hopped beer like that or IPAs. So, I thought I'd try this. I don't have a great deal of hope. Looking at my recipes from 35 years ago using Blue Ribbon, I see that the extract was hopped. At any rate, I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.
Click to expand...

Is it bitterness she doesn't like? Or is it other hop aromas/flavors?
 
Sailor323 said:
I'd appreciate any recommendations for an LME that produces a lightly hopped beer.
Click to expand...
I'd stay away from pre-hopped extracts all together. You're not going to get the finest hop flavors and aroma from them. They are mostly a large compromise between ease of use and quality, in favor of the first.

For much better beer, instead of using prehopped extracts, just boil or steep some (noble) hops in your water or wort for 10 minutes to an hour.

To curb bitterness use either or all of the following guidelines:
  • select hops with low %AA
  • use smaller hop amounts
  • select lower temps
  • at shorter duration
For example 1 oz of Saaz in a 5 gallon batch, steeped at 170F for 10' may add only 10 IBUs. But leaves a wonderful fresh, slightly floral hop aroma.
 
Maybe find a clone recipe for Smithwicks (Irish Red?), brew it "as is", and see what she thinks?

I won't speculate as to what it is about "bitterness"/"hoppiness" that she doesn't like. I have friends/family that appear to have a similar response. Over time, I've found recipes that they enjoy, but I haven't found a common pattern to styles / hops / brewing processes that guarantees success on the first attempt.
 
IslandLizard said:
You'd have to go back at least 2 centuries.

Exactly:
https://www.brewersofpa.org/alternatives-to-hops/
Click to expand...
More like 3 or 4.
I'm ready for another hop shortage.
IMG_20200507_164443.jpg
 
Sailor323 said:
35 or so years ago I made what I considered a decent brew with Blue Ribbon LME. I used one 3 lb can, additional water, brown sugar and some other minor ingredients to make a 5 gallon batch.
Click to expand...
That's a (low) hopped malt extract. Those kind of beers have a bittering level of around 10 IBU.
https://untappd.com/b/pabst-brewing-company-pabst-blue-ribbon/3883
You could get much better ingredients for a beer like that today using DME and some steeping grain instead of a can of (unhopped) LME. Some brew stores sell LME tapped from a vat, but freshness can be an issue. Hence using dry malt extract.

There is no need for using brown sugar, just use some regular sugar or corn sugar (dextrose). The molasses in brown sugar can cause weird metallic off flavors during fermentation, IMO.

And definitely use real hops. Pelletized hops are generally best to use as they keep better during storage, which should be in vacuum sealed or Nitrogen flushed oxygen barrier mylar bags and kept deep frozen. Refrigerator storage is OK for the short term, but need to be used up within say a year (or 2), as they lose potency faster.

If you have a way to ferment at cooler temps, say around 50-55F you can use a real lager yeast. But they also need a month (or 2) of ice cold storage to become nice and clear. Otherwise use a clean ale yeast at 65F. Using a good dry yeast is fine, to keep things simple.
 
IslandLizard said:
Pre-hopped extracts should never be boiled. So make sure what kind of LME you have there.

It's surely not necessary to boil (unhopped) malt extracts (i.e., LME or DME) either. Adding to hot or boiling water and keeping at pasteurization temps of 150-160F for 15-20 minutes is plenty. IMO, it tastes better if not boiled for an hour.

Extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils with top up water in the fermenter, should boil no more than half (less is even better) and add the remainder at flameout. This to prevent overly caramelizing the wort, unless you brew Scottish Ales or Barleywines.
Click to expand...
Hello! I'm going to add my question here too since I'll also be doing a pre-hopped LME this weekend - my first home brew! FWIW, I posted my question in another thread, but figured I'd get more input here too.

It came with a kit. Cooper's Hefe Wheat and 2+ lbs of "Alexander's Wheat LME," which I believe is unhopped, but I am not sure. It also didn't come with any additional hops. Instructions from the supplier say to put both LMEs in the kettle and boil for 15 minutes.

From what I understand, this is mostly, if not entirely, for pasteurization. So would you recommend I also follow the guidelines you list here and and keep them at pasteurization temperatures, rather than boiling them?

I plan on putting about 3 gallons in my kettle and mixing in colder water when it goes to the fermenter. I think this would make it a partial boil (?) but just wanted clarify.

Thanks! I'm still new here but I'm loving all the activity and helpfulness in this forum. Really looking forward to learning and more.
 
Sailor323 said:
She does like Smithwicks, guiness (but it's too filling), as for regular beers she does like Modelo.
Click to expand...

You can probably find a Modelo clone recipe that uses LME, although I would suggest using DME instead, just use a neutral ale yeast and about 1/2 oz Mt Hood or Hallertau hops in 5 gallons and see if she likes it.
Edit: I think Modelo has corn in it, you can use corn syrup instead of sugar, I've experimented with that and the beer comes out pretty good.
So it would be Extract, corn syrup, heat to just below boiling, boil a few quarts of hop tea for 15 mins, toss that in, chill, add yeast and your done.
 
Last edited:
Thanks to everyone. Some really good ideas here. I like the idea of a hops tea. Sounds like a good way to add a little bitterness to the beer without boiling the wort. Also, finding a clone extract for something she likes is promising. Meanwhile, I'll stick with IPAs for myself
 
OK, I did a little research. First of all I found out what IBU refers to. Then I found out that Modelo Especial has an IBU of 19. So, I conclude that my wife likes a hopped beer with an IBU of 19. Then I found that things get complicated when trying to determine how much hops to add to a wort in order to achieve 19 IBUs. I learned that it depends on the kind of hops, the Alpha Acid Units. Who knew it could be all that complicated? Let's say that I want to make beer using 3 lbs of unhopped LME and want to add 2 qts of hop tea to bring the wort up to 3 gallons. Is there a ball park way to determine how much hops and how long to boil the tea in order to achieve about 19 IBUs in 3 gallons?
 
Sailor323 said:
Thanks to everyone. Some really good ideas here. I like the idea of a hops tea. Sounds like a good way to add a little bitterness to the beer without boiling the wort. Also, finding a clone extract for something she likes is promising. Meanwhile, I'll stick with IPAs for myself
Click to expand...
You don't have to boil anything to get a low level of bitterness. Hop isomerization begins at 185f. So a steep at 190+ for 15-20 minutes will add a low level of bitterness and pasteurize at the same time. Although extract doesnt really need to be pasteurized.
 
IslandLizard said:
Hops do not need to be boiled in wort, they can be boiled (or steeped) in plain water. The slightly higher pH of water (compared to wort) helps with better extraction and isomerization, while the lower gravity (no sugars present) increases hop utilization.
Click to expand...
I can't say from experience, but this Beersmith article states "I recommend adding a small amount of malt extract (perhaps 15-25%) early in the boil if using separate hops. The sugars and enzymes in the extract aid in extracting alpha acids (bitterness) from the hops. Boiling hops with a small amount of extract will result in smoother hop flavors and appropriate bitterness that you can’t achieve with plain water alone." I've seen this, and the opposite, several places. I decided to use enough early extract to have about a 1.040 SG boil. That way I'm getting less darkening of the wort without risking a harsh bitterness. I'm guessing this depends on your water chemistry.

Edit: Here is the Beersmith link:Better Beer with Late Malt Extract Additions | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith™
 
Last edited:
Steveruch said:
Hop isomerization begins at 185f.
Click to expand...
That must be from an old source. According to newer research (Scott Janish, The New IPA, 2019) alpha acid isomerization starts somewhere around 140-145F. In NEIPAs we get very decent bittering from whirlpool hops ("hop stands") at 150F.

For example, using 90 grams (~3 oz) of a hop mix with an average of 15.5 %AA, according to BeerSmith 3 (and other sources) I gain:
9.9 IBU at 170F for 10' (1st whirlpool addition)
8.4 IBU at 150F for 30' (2nd whirlpool addition)
These may well be conservative estimates. Together with the 15 IBU from a relatively small 8 gram Warrior addition at 60', the resulting beer tastes more bitter than the calculated/estimated 34 IBU. More like 40-45 IBU.
 
ncbrewer said:
I can't say from experience, but this Beersmith article states "I recommend adding a small amount of malt extract (perhaps 15-25%) early in the boil if using separate hops. The sugars and enzymes in the extract aid in extracting alpha acids (bitterness) from the hops. Boiling hops with a small amount of extract will result in smoother hop flavors and appropriate bitterness that you can’t achieve with plain water alone." I've seen this, and the opposite, several places. I decided to use enough early extract to have about a 1.040 SG boil. That way I'm getting less darkening of the wort without risking a harsh bitterness. I'm guessing this depends on your water chemistry.
Click to expand...
I don't know where Brad got that notion from. IIRC, Palmer wrote some similarly in How to Brew.
There's been discussion about this before.

That would be a good exbeeriment, doing a side by side comparison!
I would like to see some pH measurements along with that, too.
 
Bring back a comment I made earlier ...

BrewnWKopperKat said:
I won't speculate as to what it is about "bitterness"/"hoppiness" that she doesn't like. I have friends/family that appear to have a similar response. Over time, I've found recipes that they enjoy, but I haven't found a common pattern to styles / hops / brewing processes that guarantees success on the first attempt.
Click to expand...

For the "peeps" that I occasionally brew for (who are "hoppy"-adverse), I am cautious about 1) using late addition hops, and 2) which hops I brew with. Antecodals: I tried magnum a couple of times, that didn't work for them. EKG (same software estimated IBUs) was ok in darker beers. Chinook @60 & @45 in a barleywine (SN Bigfoot clone): not a problem.

It may have something to do with specific hop oils in specific concentrations from specific varieties - and the combination of 60 minute boils and early hop additions cause those oils to be boiled off.
 
IslandLizard said:
That must be from an old source. According to newer research (Scott Janish, The New IPA, 2019) alpha acid isomerization starts somewhere around 140-145F. In NEIPAs we get very decent bittering from whirlpool hops ("hop stands") at 150F.

For example, using 90 grams (~3 oz) of a hop mix with an average of 15.5 %AA, according to BeerSmith 3 (and other sources) I gain:
9.9 IBU at 170F for 10' (1st whirlpool addition)
8.4 IBU at 150F for 30' (2nd whirlpool addition)
These may well be conservative estimates. Together with the 15 IBU from a relatively small 8 gram Warrior addition at 60', the resulting beer tastes more bitter than 34 IBU. More like 40-45 IBU.
Click to expand...
I haven't read Janish. Good to know.
 
This is an interesting conversation and I am enjoying it quite a bit. There are some methods that I never would have considered in my early extract brewing days, specifically not boiling the malt extract at all. I read (somewhere) that most high AA hops require some complex sugars to enhance isomerization. My extract brews were almost always split 25/75 in that 25% of the extract was added at the initial boil, and 75 percent was added within the last 20 minutes (depending on my hop schedule).

I have gotten to the point where most of the year I only use my homegrown. My yard consists of:
Petoskey
Columbus
Zeus (yes, I know they are practically the same, but one group of rhizomes was from the PAC NW, one was from the Midwest...and I live in WV so I wanted to see what would perform best)
Fuggle
Sterling
Cashmere
Crystal

I cant typically get just about everything I want out of these hops, but I do still buy a lot to get me through the rest of the year.

The reason I brought this up, is that I do not like adding anything homegrown post-boil if the temp has dipped below 165, just for safety...so as I have began transitioning into some pretty flavorful IPAs, I have started really supplementing elsewhere

How do we feel about dryhopping with dried and frozen homegrown hops?
 
ncbrewer said:
That way I'm getting less darkening of the wort without risking a harsh bitterness. I'm guessing this depends on your water chemistry.
Click to expand...
If one is brewing extract+steep with tap water, without knowing the mineral composition of the water, "all bets are off" as to the outcome.

Recently, I brewed the same SMaSH-ish DME recipe (using distilled water) with two different brands of DME . Different beers, both were good. Experimented with adding CaCl & CaS04 in the glass. The "overmineralized" levels were different for each beer (but it didn't take a lot of either salt to "overmineralize"). So each brand of DME probably started with different water chemistry. Most of this is my personal confirmation of information in a chapter of How To Brew, 4e and a chapter of Brewing Engineering (chapter numbers and specific page numbers available upon request).
 
Sailor323 said:
Let's say that I want to make beer using 3 lbs of unhopped LME and want to add 2 qts of hop tea to bring the wort up to 3 gallons. Is there a ball park way to determine how much hops and how long to boil the tea in order to achieve about 19 IBUs in 3 gallons?
Click to expand...
Not sure how to estimate/calculate hop tea in an extract brew, but I'm thinking for 5 gallons of Modelo beer, an ounce of Mt Hood or Hallertau at 60 minutes qnd 1/3 ounce of Saaz or Mt Hood/Hallertau at 10 minutes would be about right, so with 1/2 gallon of plain water for hop tea and a 3 gallon batch, I'd reduce those amounts and go with 1/3 oz of Mt Hood or Hallertau, boil it for 15 minutes and see how it comes out.
If you don't have a scale, Just dump out a 1 oz pkg of hops on to a plate and divide the pellets up by eye.
To make things more complicated, you can also make hop tea by boiling water, turning off the heat and then adding the hops, letting them steep in almost boiling water instead of boiling the hops.
Here's more information:
https://beerandbrewing.com/use-hops-tea-to-enhance-flavors-in-your-beer/
 
BrewnWKopperKat said:
Where in the book is this mentioned?
Click to expand...
Not sure, I don't have the book here. If I got it from there, it would be in Ch.2:
Chapter two is all about hot-side hopping, which includes science on early addition bittering hops and late whirlpool hops. I look at research into the importance of whirlpool hopping for enhanced hop flavoring. How the temperatures and durations of whirlpool hopping can impact hop compounds. Also, how certain hop varieties can have higher extraction efficiency than others.
Click to expand...

[Added] Scott Janish's blog also contains tons of information on hops and brewing in general as does themadfermentationist.com.

Thinking about it, I may have gotten the information on that topic from the Alchemy Overlord blog, the same link @ncbrewer posted:
An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization
and their calculator (choose either Tinseth or mIBU):
https://jphosom.github.io/alchemyoverlord/
I've used that calculator. In mIBU mode I get somewhat lower IBU estimates than BeerSmith 3 calculates from whirlpool hops.
However, the resulting beer tastes a bit more bitter, 5-10 IBU higher than the 34 IBU Beersmith predicts, including 15 IBU from bittering hops. I haven't looked deeper into the mIBU method yet to get predictions to be closer to Beersmith 3 (34 IBU) or what it tastes like in reality (40-45 IBU), which is my estimate.

The only thing I can think of is that the calcs are either conservative or dry hops add bitterness too, either perceived or real IBUs. At 4-6 oz (15.5% AA) per 5.5 gallons for 1-3 days with stirring agitation twice a day.
 
Last edited:
Thanks to all for the advice. I made a tea of 3 oz of Citra hops for a 3 gallon batch of 2 row lme. Nice, light kind of beer. My wife said a little bitter on the finish. Will try hallertau next time.
 

Similar threads

L
Tips to Prevent DME Clumping?
Replies
28
Views
2K
BrewnWKopperKat
BrewnWKopperKat
Tony B
First batch
Replies
10
Views
782
Kornssj
Kornssj
G
Kolsch recipe - need help
Replies
31
Views
2K
superiorsat
S
Bilbo24
Yeast starter questions!!!
Replies
26
Views
2K
Bilbo24
Bilbo24
spacey
First Time All Grain Brewing Mistake
Replies
13
Views
726
Bobby_M
Bobby_M
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top