Using apple juice in cyser

[myndflyte]

I would like to try making my first cyser so I went to my grocery store and just as I was about to purchase the apple cider, I noticed that it has potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate in it. So I had to make the walk of shame to put it back.

My question is, could I use apple juice concentrate and would it still taste good? Or do you suggest I keep on the hunt for no preservative cider?

 

[bernardsmith]

Personally, I think it depends on the quality of the concentrate. You might experiment with a single gallon of cyser or you might see if you can find a source of juice expressed by an orchard. Me? I would experiment AND look for some locally sourced quality juice

 

[dmtaylor]

You're in Wisconsin. It's harvest time in November. Go to an orchard and get some real stuff!

If you really must get some from a supermarket, then get Simply Apple. It has no preservatives.

You could look for preservative-free concentrate, but it won't be the same.

 

[myndflyte]

You're in Wisconsin. It's harvest time in November. Go to an orchard and get some real stuff!

Ok, ok, I'm probably being lazy about it not just going to an orchard. If I get some fresh pressed stuff, then I need to add some campden tablets before fermenting to stop any wild yeast, correct?

 

[dmtaylor]

Ok, ok, I'm probably being lazy about it not just going to an orchard. If I get some fresh pressed stuff, then I need to add some campden tablets before fermenting to stop any wild yeast, correct?

That's optional. I don't use any Campden. Often/usually an orchard will UV pasteurize the cider. I have a little left from 3 weeks ago and only now is it beginning to taste a little funny. You can often buy it frozen too so then you wouldn't need any chemicals if that's the case. Taste it and find out.

 

[Drewed]

Just don't buy the cider at The Elegant Farmer, it has preservatives in it. Best cider I've found is from Heritage Orchard north of Fond du Lac on 151. A very close second is Brighton Woods down is Kenosha County. If you don't want to travel, you local farmers market will have something this weekend. Just be sure to ask if it has preservatives in it. Most will know why you are asking and this will spark a great conversation!

 

[myndflyte]

Just don't buy the cider at The Elegant Farmer, it has preservatives in it. Best cider I've found is from Heritage Orchard north of Fond du Lac on 151. A very close second is Brighton Woods down is Kenosha County. If you don't want to travel, you local farmers market will have something this weekend. Just be sure to ask if it has preservatives in it. Most will know why you are asking and this will spark a great conversation!

I was thinking of checking out Patterson's Orchards in New Berlin. But I will be sure to ask if there are any preservatives.

 

[madscientist451]

You also might be able to find some orchard based honey, or some orchards put together a special juice blend for hard cider makers.
And of course buying apples by the bushel is way cheaper than buying them at the store. Late season apples will keep for many months, and you can make excellent apple pies and other dishes all winter long. Maybe stop in some cideries/breweries along the way, make a day of it.
Or like someome else said simply apple makes decent hard cider, just use that.
You might want to try making a beer strength ciser:
1/2 gallon simply apple
1/2 gallon water
1 lb of honey
The gravity will be about 1.050. Lower ABV meads can be consumed much earlier than full strength meads, which can take up to a year or more of aging.

 

[Drewed]

I was thinking of checking out Patterson's Orchards in New Berlin. But I will be sure to ask if there are any preservatives.

Patt's is ok cider. It is good for drinking I find it not tart enough, but that is my personal taste. When making hard ciders, and to a lesser extent cysers, you want tart cider as that will remain after fermentation. Sweet tends to get eaten up by the yeast and with it the apple taste.

HOWEVER!!!! Any locally pressed apple cider will be 1000x better than anything you can buy at the store.

 

[dmtaylor]

I look for the most aromatic, best tasting juice I can find, regardless of sweetness or acidity. If I had my choice between sweet or tart, I'd lean sweet. I find many/most juices result in a cider that is a little more tart than I prefer. Last year I added malolactic bacteria to reduce the tartness by a couple notches. I don't seek tartness on purpose.

But, this is of course a matter of preference.

The juice I use today is mostly homepressed, either by me or another local guy. We use lots of Cortland and Mac, which are very aromatic. If I buy my juice from a real orchard, my choice is Ada Rainbow out of Elkhart Lake, WI, always the best of them all every year. They tell me they base theirs on Wealthy but that it's a blend. I find Wealthy to be more tart as an eating apple, but whatever blend they are using in the juice is not as tart.

 

[bernardsmith]

If you use 71B this yeast will convert about 40% of the malic to lactic acid in the course of fermentation and aging. No need to add any MLB.

 

[Maylar]

If you use 71B this yeast will convert about 40% of the malic to lactic acid in the course of fermentation and aging. No need to add any MLB.

No, it won't. Please stop saying that. 71B metabolizes malic acid into alcohol and CO2, the result being a lower level of acid at the end. But it's NOT converted to lactic. Only malolactic bacteria can do that.

A well balanced cider needs a bit of malic acid bite, and some tannin. If your juice is high in acid - like 7 g/l or more then 71B is a good choice for bringing that down. But a typical orchard cider at 5 g/l will end up flabby and bland. Been there, done that.

And yes, you need to be able to test TA to know.

 

[bernardsmith]

when Lallemand stops stating this in their 71B spec sheets i will stop saying that 71B metabolizes malic into lactic. But they continue to say that this yeast DOES metabolize malic acid. But how does a yeast convert an acid into ethanol? It's sugar that is converted. and 71B is not some new fungus that changes acids into alcohol. Sorry. When you are right you're right but when you're wrong you are not right.

http://catalogapp.lallemandwine.com/uploads/yeasts/docs/fb7de2b9d2294a079dcfd3339362606d478daace.pdf

http://www.scottlab.com/product-31.aspx#

which is why 71B is the preferred yeast for many , many cider makers. (see cidertalk).

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for the links.

Personal preference, but if 71B is known for generating banana and "fruit salad" character, then I'm not putting it anywhere near my apple juice. I've never used it and probably never will based on that description. To each their own.

Hmm. A little more Googling...

"malic enzyme converts malic acid into pyruvic acid, which is further metabolised to ethanol and carbon dioxide under fermentative conditions via the so-called malo-ethanolic (ME) pathway."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12802505

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...1953002d.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2UmJJ5bpRRy76rcxbvnvik

https://www.reddit.com/r/winemaking..._is_the_extent_of_maloethanolic_fermentation/

 

[Maylar]

From Scott Labs:

Softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid

They do NOT say that it converts malic into lactic acid. In fact they don't say exactly what "metabolizes" means.

I got my info from a thread by Andrew Lea and Claude Jolicoeur on another cider forum. Even if they were incorrect in their conclusions about conversion into ethanol and CO2, the fact is that they were able to measure the TA drop with 71B and MLF was a separate process.

It's fine to tell people that 71B reduces malic acid, it's not fine to say that it does MLF.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks for the links.

Personal preference, but if 71B is known for generating banana and "fruit salad" character, then I'm not putting it anywhere near my apple juice. I've never used it and probably never will based on that description. To each their own.

Lol Ok. I have used it with a complex cyser and it came out quite good. But I can't see spending good money on juice that's pressed for acid and tannins and have the yeast take the acid out. To each his own, indeed.

Hmm. A little more Googling...

"malic enzyme converts malic acid into pyruvic acid, which is further metabolised to ethanol and carbon dioxide under fermentative conditions via the so-called malo-ethanolic (ME) pathway."

That's the reference that I've seen. Thanks.

 

[bernardsmith]

Touche. A hit. A palpable hit. But 71B converts a significant amount of malic to lactic and so "softens" the harshness of the acidity. That is why after about 9 months to a year apple wines and ciders made with 71B are incredibly transformed. The AMOUNT of acid (the pH) does not change but the STRENGTH of the acidity does.

 

[dmtaylor]

Um.

 

[Maylar]

The amount of acid is TA (titratable acidity), and yes it does change with 71B. I'll see if I can find the empirical data that Jolicoeur posted.

But, hey, believe what you like.