Unnecessary brewing practices

[kombat]

Can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, but here goes: Boiling top-up water.

I boil my wort, but not other water used in the process. The water I use to rehydrate my dry yeast? Straight out of the tap. Top-up water? Tap. Gelatin water? Heated to 150 to dissolve the gelatin, but not boiled. No infections yet in over 60 batches.

I also don't bother re-sanitizing fermenters or kegs immediately prior to use. I sanitize them after I clean them, which is right after I empty them. When I empty a carboy, I fill it to the brim with a hot water and Oxyclean solution and leave it for a day. Then I dump it out, rinse it 2-3 times, pour in a couple quarts of Star-San, swirl it around and work up some bubbles, then dump it out and cap it with a piece of sanitized aluminum foil held on with a couple rubber bands. Then on brew day (which could be months later), when it's time to rack from the boil kettle to a fermenter, I just take the carboy, remove the foil cap, dump out any remaining Star-San, and rack the beer into it. Ditto for my kegs, except they're sealed and pressurized (with a splash of Star-San) instead of with aluminum foil.

 

[broadbill]

Based on the research I add about 3mg per 100 billion cells. I measure it using a scientific scale. You must add it to the starter. You cannoy just simply toss it into your wort. The environment is too large for all of the yeast to find and consume it. A stir plate is perfect for this. I have done a side by side. The yeast fermented out the same. The beers were identical in taste, head retention, clarity. My friend did the aerated batch. We split a ten gallon wort batch. This is anecdotal and shouldnt be the only evidence you use in determining if this is for you. Read the research I posted on the prior page. It is page 274. Not 217 as I mistakenly posted.

...and what happened to the yeast starter that you didn't treat with anything, that received a pitch of yeast identical to the those wort splits that got spun on the stir plate or received olive oil spiked wort?

You did do a negative control right?

BTW, my criticism with your experiment is the same the Hull hypothesis, lack of a control to frame the experiments in the proper context. I also read the link you posted and I would say the author somewhat overstates the conclusions derived from Hull's work, in my opinion.

As a disclaimer, I am not refusing the requirement of oxygen in yeast growth, or even the ability to bypass oxygen requirement of yeast using unsaturated fatty acids, at least from a biochemical standpoint.

What I'm saying is that I have yet to see any strong evidence that olive can functionally replace oxygen as an aeration method. The work that has been done as been inconclusive and challenges by the "yay-sayers" have been largely unmet (see the other thread for all the details).

I've spoken my piece ad nausetum in the other thread on this, but I did want to voice my strong skepticism for type of recommendation,for the sake of the other posters that might read this.

 

[progmac]

my two cents on the "no-aeration/oxygenation" comments.

what i've taken away from what the yeast labs and researchers have published is that if you have lots of HEALTHY yeast (eg at the rate of MrMalty type calculators), you can probably get by without a lot of aeration. But--if I understand this correctly--the so-called 'daughter' cells will be small, scarred, and unhealthy. And this--i think--means you have generally declining yeast health, which would affect subsequent attempts to reuse the yeast.

 

[jph2275]

Can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, but here goes: Boiling top-up water.

I boil my wort, but not other water used in the process. The water I use to rehydrate my dry yeast? Straight out of the tap. Top-up water? Tap. Gelatin water? Heated to 150 to dissolve the gelatin, but not boiled. No infections yet in over 60 batches.

I also don't bother re-sanitizing fermenters or kegs immediately prior to use. I sanitize them after I clean them, which is right after I empty them. When I empty a carboy, I fill it to the brim with a hot water and Oxyclean solution and leave it for a day. Then I dump it out, rinse it 2-3 times, pour in a couple quarts of Star-San, swirl it around and work up some bubbles, then dump it out and cap it with a piece of sanitized aluminum foil held on with a couple rubber bands. Then on brew day (which could be months later), when it's time to rack from the boil kettle to a fermenter, I just take the carboy, remove the foil cap, dump out any remaining Star-San, and rack the beer into it. Ditto for my kegs, except they're sealed and pressurized (with a splash of Star-San) instead of with aluminum foil.

Wait ... You're supposed to boil that schtuff?

 

[fearwig]

Boil everything. For at least a day. Then drink some starsan, and you're ready to brew.

 

[AnOldUR]

I also don't bother re-sanitizing fermenters or kegs immediately prior to use. I sanitize them after I clean them, which is right after I empty them. When I empty a carboy, I fill it to the brim with a hot water and Oxyclean solution and leave it for a day. Then I dump it out, rinse it 2-3 times, pour in a couple quarts of Star-San, swirl it around and work up some bubbles, then dump it out and cap it with a piece of sanitized aluminum foil held on with a couple rubber bands. Then on brew day (which could be months later), when it's time to rack from the boil kettle to a fermenter, I just take the carboy, remove the foil cap, dump out any remaining Star-San, and rack the beer into it. Ditto for my kegs, except they're sealed and pressurized (with a splash of Star-San) instead of with aluminum foil.

My understanding is that no rinse sanitizers like Star-San were only effective while wet. My practice is to clean after use, but not sanitize. I do that with a spray bottle just prior to use.

 

[LovesIPA]

I believe that's correct. As soon as the star-san dries, the surface is susceptible to infection again via dust particles in the air carrying around loads of wild bacteria and yeast.

 

[kombat]

I believe that's correct. As soon as the star-san dries, the surface is susceptible to infection again via dust particles in the air carrying around loads of wild bacteria and yeast.

Right. That's why I seal the carboys with sanitized aluminum foil and rubber bands until I'm ready to fill it with wort.

 

[freisste]

This is a "live-and-let-live" subject, and if it works for you, that's great. I won't ask you to change if you don't ask me to change.

But I have to ask - what's the advantage of sanitizing and then storing vs. sanitizing immediately before use? I personally clean, store, sanitize, brew because it was explained to me that way and it made sense to me...I've never really challenged the plan. Now I hear a bunch of people saying clean, sanitize, store, brew. I guess it just doesn't make as much sense to me.

 

[deBrouwer]

I can see how it would make brew day a little more hassle-free. But only a little more, and not enough to add the extra risk of infection IMO.

 

[masonsjax]

If your equipment isnt still wet with starsan when your beer touches it, you might as well not sanitize at all. Assuming Starsan is what you use of course.

 

[Gameface]

Even when sanitized you have not eliminated 100% of the bacteria that could potentially be present. A clean glass surface does not encourage bacteria growth so if it's sanitized and sealed, even after the sanitizer dries, there's nothing for any possible bacteria to eat, so they aren't going to multiply or anything.

 

[kirbcheck]

It makes sanitizing more convenient. 3 here, 3 there... it makes a habit of not letting gross things get out of control in your bottles... I rinse after drinking and sanitize all before bottling... neither proves to be more effective...

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[max384]

If your equipment isnt still wet with starsan when your beer touches it, you might as well not sanitize at all. Assuming Starsan is what you use of course.

This is a bit of a ridiculous statement. Sanitizing and then letting it dry is better than not sanitizing at all. Even though it has dried and no longer is sanitizing the surface, it's better than doing nothing to kill any of the bugs at all.

 

[masonsjax]

Exaggerated to make my point. Of course some sanitizer is better than none, but it's definitely not a once clean always clean situation. If you want sanitary equipment, do it right before use.

 

[jonmohno]

I like to sanitize then turn bottles upside down on counter to drip dry, but sometimes I will preboil and cool 6-8 oz of water to rinse each bottle right before bottleing. Turning upside down is kinda risky though if your not carful, but I like the method. I have knocked some over but not broke them. Im not comfortable of having more than a few drops of sanitizer in my beer really.

 

[mhurst111]

Can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, but here goes: Boiling top-up water.

On a similar note, when doing extract partial boil batches I would boil 2-3 gallons. Pour that over a 10 lb bag of store bought ice (into 6 gallon bucket) and I'd have 5 gallons of 70 degree wort ready for pitching in about 5 minutes. No infections in 3 years of using that method.

Also, not sure if it's been mentioned, but 15 minute boil on extract beers works fine. Have to use extra hops, but beer tastes fine.

 

[kombat]

If your equipment isnt still wet with starsan when your beer touches it, you might as well not sanitize at all. Assuming Starsan is what you use of course.

Well, like I said, I clean, rinse, sanitize, seal and store, and haven't had a single infection in over 60 batches, so I don't know what to tell you. I do it this way because I like knowing my equipment is ready for use at any time, and it shortens the hassles on brew day.

I submit that a clean, sanitized, and sealed carboy will remain virtually germ-free until it's unsealed and used. Any bacteria that remains inside the carboy that survives the initial sanitization will have nothing to feed on while being stored, and if it's still there when the wort is finally added, they'll be immediately outnumbered and overwhelmed by the hundreds of billions of yeast cells.

This thread is about UNNECESSARY practices, and if 60 consecutive infection-free batches doesn't demonstrate that sanitizing the carboy immediately before filling (as opposed to sanitizing after cleaning then sealing shut) is unnecessary, then what would?

 

[Hamaki]

Some stores make and sell their own ice, not always safely. I wouldn't trust ice made on site. Prepackaged ice made at an ice plant would be safer but still outside my comfort zone.

I have on a couple of occasions used unboiled tap water to top off too much boil off and did not infect the batches; this is not something I consider a best practice.

Bottles - I spend way more time cleaning than I do sanitizing. Since I'm not the only beer drinker in my house and others are not always careful to rinse their bottle immediately I wash and brush out all bottles. Takes 30 - 45 minutes for a batch. I sanitize immediately before bottling, takes a couple of minutes and the bottles are covered by mounds of foam.

 

[broadbill]

Well, like I said, I clean, rinse, sanitize, seal and store, and haven't had a single infection in over 60 batches, so I don't know what to tell you. I do it this way because I like knowing my equipment is ready for use at any time, and it shortens the hassles on brew day.

What do all of you people need to sanitize on your brew day, other than the fermenter the cooled wort is going into???

Everything else is on the hot side...

Are all really arguing about the 30 seconds it takes to swirl Star-san around an ale pail/carboy?

 

[Hamaki]

What do all of you people need to sanitize on your brew day, other than the fermenter the cooled wort is going into???

Everything else is on the hot side...

Are all really arguing about the 30 seconds it takes to swirl Star-san around an ale pail/carboy?

On brew day I sanitize my CFC, tubing, bottling bucket, strainer that I drain through to the bottling bucket, and my carboy/fermenter. I strain trub & cold break out and in the process aerate the wort. I then drain from the bucket to the fermenter. It's more than just the fermenter but not a significant demand of time or effort.

 

[Brewmenn]

This thread is about UNNECESSARY practices, and if 60 consecutive infection-free batches doesn't demonstrate that sanitizing the carboy immediately before filling (as opposed to sanitizing after cleaning then sealing shut) is unnecessary, then what would?

But I could just as easily say that sanitizing after cleaning and sealing shut is unnecessary because I can sanitize just before using.

 

[broadbill]

On brew day I sanitize my CFC, tubing, bottling bucket, strainer that I drain through to the bottling bucket, and my carboy/fermenter. I strain trub & cold break out and in the process aerate the wort. I then drain from the bucket to the fermenter. It's more than just the fermenter but not a significant demand of time or effort.

You can circulate hot wort to sanitize CFC and tubing, and I let anything that doesn't stay in my hop bag go right into the fermenter. Also, the cold break isn't forming until its gets chilled, so if you are using a CFC that is ending up in your fermenter.

 

[AnOldUR]

This thread is about UNNECESSARY practices, and if 60 consecutive infection-free batches doesn't demonstrate that sanitizing the carboy immediately before filling (as opposed to sanitizing after cleaning then sealing shut) is unnecessary, then what would?

Well, I have way more than 100 batches where I only sanitized before use and no infections. This demonstrates that sanitizing after cleaning is UNNECESSARY. Wait until you're ready to use an item and give it a squirt with a spray bottle. Use it wet! Don’t fear the foam or the moisture from Star San.



edit:
oops, Brewmenn beat me to it.

 

[kombat]

What do all of you people need to sanitize on your brew day, other than the fermenter the cooled wort is going into???

• Plate chiller, hoses (although I've recently abandoned this practice and just circulate hot wort for a minute or two before turning on the chilling water flow)
• A stainless steel spoon when I need to reach into the wort to scrape break material off the filter screen on the outlet port
• Fizz-X rod or diffusion stone/tubing for aerating
• Bung, airlock for carboy
• Beaker containing rehydrating yeast
• Funnel to pour yeast into carboy
• Autosiphon to get cooled wort from kettle to carboy
• Piece of foil to cap carboy while transporting it from the garage where I brew to the basement prior to aerating, pitching, and affixing an airlock

 

[kombat]

But I could just as easily say that sanitizing after cleaning and sealing shut is unnecessary because I can sanitize just before using.

Fair enough, this one I listed more as a way to shorten the brew day.

 

[fearwig]

Star-san simply sanitizes, meaning it reduces microbe counts "enough". You can probably get away with sanitizing before storage, and figuring microbes won't grow in this sealed, high humidity environment you've just created by sealing up your carboy with a thin film of sanitizer inside. Until you get an infection. Definitely not the same as sanitizing before use.

 

[broadbill]

• Plate chiller, hoses (although I've recently abandoned this practice and just circulate hot wort for a minute or two before turning on the chilling water flow)
• A stainless steel spoon when I need to reach into the wort to scrape break material off the filter screen on the outlet port
• Fizz-X rod or diffusion stone/tubing for aerating
• Bung, airlock for carboy
• Beaker containing rehydrating yeast
• Funnel to pour yeast into carboy
• Autosiphon to get cooled wort from kettle to carboy
• Piece of foil to cap carboy while transporting it from the garage where I brew to the basement prior to aerating, pitching, and affixing an airlock

wow, that is alot of stuff...

 

[markstache]

+1 to this....often times I merely use it to plug up the hole in the lid of my ale-pail, which rests loosely on top of the bucket for the duration of the fermentation.

I've been skipping blow off tubes in favor of sanitized aluminum foil over the mouth of the carboy. After high kruesen, I replace it with an airlock. In the summer, I'll probably go back to blowoff tubes, as I don't have confidence in foil to keep out fruit flies, which have been my biggest sanitary concern.

 

[masonsjax]

If you're going to sanitize and seal a fermenter before storage, why not store it with a half gallon of sanitizer in it and just swirl and dump it just before use?

 

[kirbcheck]

Some people push wort through a chiller with a pump to cool... the chiller should always be sanitized inside or out depending... if using a pump to move wort into the fermenter, most well run Star San through it and the hoses... literally anything that comes in contact with the wort post boil... hydrometer is another one...

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[AnOldUR]

If you're going to sanitize and seal a fermenter before storage, why not store it with a half gallon of sanitizer in it and just swirl and dump it just before use?

I use to do this, but for me if the carboy sat for more than a few weeks the Star San left a filmy ring. Probably safe, but still didn't look right so I'd have to waste time re-cleaning and sanitizing to satisfy my OCD. :cross:

Easier to just store them clean and dry. Beside that, it's a waste of a half gallon of Star-San.

 

[Jetski]

Confession. Me neither. I rinse them soon after drinking. Then, I wash them in a sink of Ajax dish washing liquid once the windowsill of empties gets full, and then store them in a closed box. On bottling day, I look in each bottle before filling it with beer just to be sure it looks clean. I've done this for years with no problems. .

I'm glad I'm not the only one that stores bottles on the windowsill until it gets full before washing.

 

[Hamaki]

You can circulate hot wort to sanitize CFC and tubing, and I let anything that doesn't stay in my hop bag go right into the fermenter. Also, the cold break isn't forming until its gets chilled, so if you are using a CFC that is ending up in your fermenter.

I run hot, near boiling, water from my HLT through the CFC to sanitize since I need to drain it anyway. I rely on the hot wort to sanitize my little pump and I set up my bucket with a strainer to catch any solids I can coming out of the CFC. A lot still gets through but I don't like having a 4 inch layer of solids in the bottom of my carboy more from a "taking up too much space" standpoint than worries about affecting beer quality, so I catch what I can.

 

[dkevinb]

What do all of you people need to sanitize on your brew day, other than the fermenter the cooled wort is going into???

• Measuring cup & spoon for rehydrating yeast
• Scissors for opening yeast packet
• Yeast packet
• Hydrometer
• Thermometer
• Airlock

It's not like it's all that time consuming. I dump the sanitizer out of the fermenter into a big bowl and toss everything into the bowl while I'm boiling.

Keeping a spray bottle of sanitizer around sure speeds things up, too.

 

[broadbill]

Some people push wort through a chiller with a pump to cool... the chiller should always be sanitized inside or out depending... if using a pump to move wort into the fermenter, most well run Star San through it and the hoses... literally anything that comes in contact with the wort post boil... hydrometer is another one...

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I for one don't run star-san through my pump and chiller, but sanitize instead with boiling wort...no need to star-san.

Also, most people take a sample for a hydrometer reading, so the hydrometer doesn't touch wort.

 

[NickTheGreat]

Also, most people take a sample for a hydrometer reading, so the hydrometer doesn't touch wort.

But you have to sanitize your thief or your turkey baster or whatever you sample with. And I just drink the gravity sample, partially so I don't have to sanitize the hydrometer and tube.

 

[grainbill]

cept for the first few extract brews I have always racked to secondary or even tertiary.
Haven't dumped a batch since, 25 + yrs.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . most people take a sample for a hydrometer reading, so the hydrometer doesn't touch wort.

The only reason I sanitize my hydrometer and test tube is that after taking the OG reading, I'll cover the top with a piece of sanitized foil and leave it on the counter for a few days. If it starts to ferment on its own, it's kind of a warning sign that my wort may have gotten contaminated post boil. (Not that there's much to do about it at that point. Just reassurance.)

And yes, this can be filed under Unnecessary Brewing Practices.

 

[fearwig]

I sanitize my hydrometer if I intend to float it in my beer, because I live dangerously like that. But I don't do that if there's any krausen to speak of, because you can't get a reading.

I also float it in my wort collection bucket, but you don't need to be sanitary there.