Unmalted mash

[Murika]

I tried malting and kilning some quinoa crystal malt this week, and while the product appears to have turned out well, the smell was just horrid.

I would love to try an all grain quinoa beer, but don't want to malt all 10+ pounds to do it.

I was thinking, couldn't I just cook the grains so they're all nice and gelatinized and mash them using store bought amylase enzymes to replace the diastatic power I've lost? Has anyone else tried this? Any problems I might run into going this route?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Isn't crystal malt already malted and kilned?

Maybe time to run a bunch of 1-gallon batches off of the same mash to try and hone your technique for whatever profile you are after.


As long as you are experimenting, you could try Beano too; Maybe in conjunction with a saison yeast so that the glycerol could add the sensation of body.

 

[Murika]

Yeah, I malted and kilned maybe about a kg of quinoa crystal malt.

But to do an all grain will take more grain and I don't want that smell in my apartment again.

Beano? Never heard of using that in a beer.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Beano is a debranching enzyme that converts starches into sugars much like amalyse, but it will keep going leaving you with a very light, dry beer unless you can denature the enzyme with temperature or other methods.
It may or may not work for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there as another option for experimentation.

 

[Murika]

Interesting.

Still though, looking for an answer on just gelatinizing the grains and adding amylase at around 60 degrees celsius for an hour or so? Would that work? Has anyone tried it? Would the beer taste like beer or something awful?

 

[Legume]

My normal process involves using enzymes to convert not-malted grains, just as you describe.
I do use malted GF grains as specialty malts, but my "base malt" is non malted millet, tapioca starch and buckwheat.

An example of the process is linked below.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597626

 

[Murika]

That's interesting Legume.

I've been thinking of adding millet and buckwheat to mine as well.

Do you cook the millet or buckwheat first or do you just grind and mash?

I noticed you're adding acid and such: is a mash without malted grains more basic (pH) than a malted mash would be?

I have been toying with the idea of boiling hops for an hour in water, then, letting that water cool to my mash temp and adding it in. I was thinking it would make things more acidic in the mash and maybe add some hop flavor?

 

[Legume]

I do not pre-cook my grain, but my first rest is at 185F (85 C). This mash step uses Termamyl, which is an alpha amylase that is active at this temp; this high temp step gelatinizes the starch.

 

[Legume]

I adjust my pH with lactic acid sometimes.
The acid is not absolutely nessassarry unless your brewing water pH is high.
I use RO water, and can make good beer with no acid addition.

If you are trying to master a difficult process like making GF beer from non-malted grains, I would not introduce the extra variable of mashing with hop tea untill you have found a process that is working for you.

 

[Murika]

Thank you for the advice. I'll try it without the hops first. Also good to know that the commercial alpha amylase has a higher mash temp.

I won't have access to anything except alpha amylase. What kind of fermentability does an alpha amylase only wort usually give you? Do you grind or crush? And how important is toasting your millet? Can you get a good flavor skipping that step?

I have so many questions for you... Lol

 

[Legume]

Amylase products vary widely in their temperature range and in how fermentable of a wort they produce.

Regular amylase will denature during the 185 f rest, that is why I use Termamyl.

You could substitute diastase for the SEBamyl L in the 140 Friday rest.

I don't know if toasting the grain is an important step or not, I have not yet tried a batch without doing it.

 

[Legume]

I grind by making 2 passes through a Corona mill.

 

[homemaltster]

I tried malting and kilning some quinoa crystal malt this week, and while the product appears to have turned out well, the smell was just horrid.

I would love to try an all grain quinoa beer, but don't want to malt all 10+ pounds to do it.

I was thinking, couldn't I just cook the grains so they're all nice and gelatinized and mash them using store bought amylase enzymes to replace the diastatic power I've lost? Has anyone else tried this? Any problems I might run into going this route?

Cool stuff, Murika. I've been wanting to malt and brew with quinoa myself. When you malted it, what part of the process smelled so bad? Kilning?

 

[homemaltster]

And what kind of smell? When I malt, there's certain smells at each stage-- cucumbers during germination, toasty cereal during kilning--but never a super offensive smell. I'd assume something was off during your malting process if you did get a nasty smell.

 

[Murika]

During germination it smelled... Difficult to describe. I don't know if I would call it cucumber but it had a vegetal something. Maybe some sourness but not really?

The smell in the apartment during kilning made my girlfriend want to vomit. It was... Unlike anything I've smelled.

But once we turned up the heat past 70°C, it smelled more like toasted cereal. The taste of the grains is sweet/coffee or chocolatey (some I heated at a higher temperature). They smell the same.

Idk... Do you think this is a quinoa thing or an infection thing? If it's the latter, other than a potentially bad flavor, will any beer I make from it be safe to drink?

 

[homemaltster]

Right, I was describing the smells of germinating barley specifically. I haven't done quinoa so I can't say anything for certain about its smell, but that sourness doesn't sound like a normal smell. In my experience, when my grain isn't getting enough oxygen or is getting too warm, there's a somewhat sweet, fermented smell, like fruit going bad.

As for kilning, the initial stage when you're getting rid of most of the moisture can smell somewhat musty, but I've never smelled anything vomit-inducing. But if your grain smells funky during germination, then kilning it will amplify that funky smell.

It sounds like the quinoa may have been on its way toward getting moldy. Also sounds like you may have kilned it in time to prevent serious mold, seeing as it smells and tastes pretty normal now. I don't think you'd be making an unsafe beer with it, but if it's only 1 kg, then it wouldn't be a tragedy to toss it.

I bet if you tried malting quinoa again, you'd have more success. And if it is smelling funky at the end of germination, don't kiln it and you won't have that awful smell again.