Two Saisons, NZ Hops, and concerns.

[technicoloraudio]

I am about to brew two saisons and have been trying to work out the hop additions and could use some advice. My batches now are 5.25-5.5 G. I treat my water with a Campden Tablet or 5.2, usually add Wyeast Yeast Nutrient, and clear with irish moss. I aerate with 2 two-minute blasts of oxygen.
My yeasts are from starters prepared well in advance and stepped accordingly.

The first is a WL565/644 Brett B
4 lbs. Munich
3 lbs. Breiss 2 row
3 lbs. CaraPils
2 lbs. Weyerman Acidulated Malt

Want to hop this one with 1 oz. of Nelson Sauvin (11.4 AA) and 1 oz. of French Strisselspalt (2.3 AA)

my tentative schedule is:
FWH: 7 g. NS
60:
40: 7 g. NS
20: 7 g. NS
15: 14 g. F. Strisselspalt
5: 14 g. F. Strisselspalt
FO: 7 g. NS

The second is a WY3711 Saison
3 lbs. Munich
3 lbs. US 2 row
3 lbs. Crisp Maris Otter
1.5 lbs. CaraPils
2.5 lbs. Cara 10L
1 lb Weyerman BW smoked malt

This is where I am getting concerned, I have allocated three ounces of hops for this one, want some citrus/currant to work with the subtle smoke and some fruit to develop against the spice of 3711. I have 1 oz. Pacific Jade (13.4 AA), 1 oz. Nelson Sauvin, and 1 oz. Moteuka (6.8 AA) for this brew.

my tentative schedule for this one was:
FWH: 14 g. Pacific Jade
60: 7 g. NS
45: 7 g. PJ
30: 7 g. NS
20: 7 g. Moteuka
15: 7 g. NS
10: 7 g. Moteuka
5: 7 g. NS
FO: 7 g. Moteuka

my goal is to create complexity, but I don't want muddled bitterness.
I have done my research on each of these hops, but never brewed with any of them. I have imbibed on their flavors, and know what I want, but each one of their respective usages seems to be all over the place (the French Strisselspalt seems to be pretty straight-forward...)

As usual, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[nofootbreak]

your first recipe has carapils at 25% of the grain bill, which is far too much crystal malt. Saisons are dry and carapils is a crystal malt that is largely unfermentable. I would completely drop the crystal. The acid malt rather heavy as well. Less than 5% will be noticeable I also prefer Pils as a base malt over 2-row in saisons, and maybe up to like 8% munich.

Both recipes need the crystal omitted, or toned way down. Personally I would keep it to Pils base malt instead of using 3 different base malts. There will be plenty of complexity without using an over complicated grain bill.

I would make the grain bills much simpler and rely on the yeast and hops to create the complexity.

 

[technicoloraudio]

I was under the impression that Crystal malts still offered some fermentability, and used them so that I could get a full bodied beer with a lower ABV than a normal base malt. I used the 2 lbs of Acidulated malt in hopes to bring some tartness to the beer without pitching lacto. I was hoping that both beers would finish around 4% but would have full flavor and body.

Perhaps this was a rookie error on my part? These were my 12th and 13th batches. Have had good luck with 3711 in the past and wanted to try it along side the Bretted White Labs strain to compare activity.

I brewed these yesterday, we will see how they turn out, but would like to brew them again in a month or so after I rack them to secondary.

 

[TheZymurgist]

your first recipe has carapils at 25% of the grain bill, which is far too much crystal malt. Saisons are dry and carapils is a crystal malt that is largely unfermentable. I would completely drop the crystal. The acid malt rather heavy as well. Less than 5% will be noticeable I also prefer Pils as a base malt over 2-row in saisons, and maybe up to like 8% munich.

Both recipes need the crystal omitted, or toned way down. Personally I would keep it to Pils base malt instead of using 3 different base malts. There will be plenty of complexity without using an over complicated grain bill.

I would make the grain bills much simpler and rely on the yeast and hops to create the complexity.

I somewhat agree with this, but the Saison style is pretty loose, mostly defined by the yeast. If it were me, I would follow these suggestions, only out of personal preference. I would also suggest that if you want a fuller body and lower ABV, try mashing higher, maybe around 158 or more.

I do think your proportions might be a little high on the specialty malts, especially that smoked malt. Though I don't have any personal experience with it, I've heard a little goes a long way. Since you've already brewed these, I would taste them and see how they turn out.

I know you were looking for hop advice, but I think your hop schedules look pretty good. I wouldn't necessarily change anything there until you taste them.

 

[smakudwn]

I have a Sasion on tap that has 1oz NS hops at 0 min and I think its fantastic. I bittered with Sazz. Those were the only 2 hops I used.

 

[MrOH]

Here are my thoughts, and keep in mind that these are just my opinions.

Overall, you've got a lot going on in these recipes. Way more crystal malts than I like in a Saison, but to each their own.

Recipe 1: The brett should, in theory, eat up all the unfermentables from the carapils, but it will take a while. Keep this in mind before bottling.

Recipe 2: 3711 is a beast and may eat through the crystal in this one as well. I'd also use caution before bottling this guy, as the more complex sugars are harder for the yeast to metabolize. I'm also thinking that this will end up being a very bitter beer.

Anyhow, you've already brewed them, so I guess this is more of a heads-up than anything. Make sure you wait these beers out quite a bit before packaging to avoid bottle-bombs.