Trying to understand sour

[DocDriza]

Hey, I'm looking to brew a sour beer. What I would like to do is brew a Belgian blonde again that came out really good. I would use WLP550. When complete I would then rack into a secondary, then add WLP677 into the secondary and let it do its thing for the next 9-12 months. Does that sound like something that would work or is there something I'm missing?

 

[m00ps]

that would work. I usually turn my sours around in less than half that time, but its all about how quickly it develops. After packaging, it will still evolve over time

 

[hopbrad]

im not a sour expert. but 677 is just lacto. wouldnt the OP want some brett and pedio as well or can you get a good sour with just lacto after primary with a sacc.

if it were me id brew up the blonde ale you mentioned, keep the IBUs somewhat low and pitch a blend like 655 or 665. no starter, no additional sacc. maybe add some dregs along the way.

 

[m00ps]

im not a sour expert. but 677 is just lacto. wouldnt the OP want some brett and pedio as well or can you get a good sour with just lacto after primary with a sacc.

if it were me id brew up the blonde ale you mentioned, keep the IBUs somewhat low and pitch a blend like 655 or 665. no starter, no additional sacc. maybe add some dregs along the way.

good point. I didnt look it up

IME, you always want brett in the mix to help clean up any nasty products from teh bacteria.

 

[martyjhuebs]

I would try to get the WLP655 the Sour Mix. It has everything you need to make a good aged sour beer. I would also make a starter out of it since it has 2 yeasts and a bacteria in the same size of vial that you would normally use for a single yeast.

 

[beergolf]

Another thing to consider is the IBU's. Lacto is inhibited by too many IBU's

Keep the IBU's under 10.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Worth considering is that 677, Lactobacillus Delbrueckii, can very often not really do a good job of souring a beer. In my experience, it doesn't do much souring at all. In one of my beers, it didn't sour the beer AT ALL for more than a year and even at 18 months in it was very, very slightly soured. And that beer was only 7 ibus.

You can see Michael Tonsmeire's experience with it here. Read his tasting notes as well, linked at the bottom of this linked page.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/06/100-lactobacillus-berliner-weisse.html

In my experience, the Lacto Brevis from White Labs does a much better job of souring.

If I were you, I would try MÉLANGE - SOUR BLEND from Yeast Bay. It's packed with character. Get a decently fresh batch and pitch no starter and use only that for fermenting.

http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/melange

And, read American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeire.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

good point. I didnt look it up

IME, you always want brett in the mix to help clean up any nasty products from teh bacteria.

In my experience, Lacto doesn't really produce any nasty products that need cleaning up. While Brett can be used in a Berliner Weisse, it's not strictly necessary for cleanup. You may be referring to Pedio and Diacetyl production, though. Yeah?

 

[DocDriza]

This is some good stuff. I'll trade out the WLP677 for the WLP655. From this thread I've learned that Lacto is inhibited by high IBU's but what about Brett? I don't mind if it takes a while to sour. The recipe I am using has 22.2 IBU's is that still good? Also the estimated abv is 7%. Is there any issue with that? Since I want to use WLP655 should I still do a starter? What is the recommended size?

 

[hopbrad]

+1 mad fermentationist site. its packed with great information.

I think its pedio that produces the diacetyl that the brett will take care of. i dont have experience with that, only have read about it.

as for the starter, its your call. some people do and some people dont. Im in the mindset that you either want the sacc strain to poop out early so there are more sugars for the brett/bugs to eat. or be stressed and produce some esters for the brett to go to work on.

Your call with IBUs and ABV too.
The less the better for lacto.
Im not sure on either for pedio.
brett is pretty hearty, 22 IBUs and 7% ABV should be ok.
if your finding after 8-10 months, its not funky/sour enough, you could pitch some dregs.
One thing to consider is your FG will be lower than your original recipe. expect it to go down close to 1.000-1.003 range. so your ABV will be higher. you can adjust the recipe if you dont want a high a ABV sour.

also mash high for more dextrins. bugs/brett will eat them for more funkiness.

good luck!

 

[MattHollingsworth]

This is some good stuff. I'll trade out the WLP677 for the WLP655. From this thread I've learned that Lacto is inhibited by high IBU's but what about Brett? I don't mind if it takes a while to sour. The recipe I am using has 22.2 IBU's is that still good? Also the estimated abv is 7%. Is there any issue with that? Since I want to use WLP655 should I still do a starter? What is the recommended size?

Brett doesn't mind IBUs at all. Lacto does. From my understanding, Pedio is pretty okay with IBUs. That blend, WLP655, has all three. If you want it to sour, better to go easy on the IBUs, under 10 at least, IMHO.

From Wild Brews, by Jeff Sparrow:

"Like most gram-positive bacteria, the presence of certain hop acids retards the growth of most Lactbacillus sp., although this character is strain dependent. Many strains of L. delbrueckii shiver at the site of a hop cone, while those of L. brevis may be favored or feared for their resistance to hop acids. Sensitive to alcohol formation, as the concentration increases Lactobacillus will die. Alcohol and hop acids help to keep lactic acid production in check in lambic and Flanders beers."

From American Sour Beers, by Michael Tonsmeire:

"While as few as 8 IBUs are enough to inhibit most commercial strains of Lactobacillus, more are needed to inhibit the wide range of species that exist in the wild. Hops become more effective at inhibiting Lactobacillus as the pH of the beer drops, so even if you notice a strong initial fermentation by the bacteria, lackluster souring could be the result of having too high of a hopping rate."

That said, in that same book, some of his sour beers, notably his Flemish recipes, have IBUs in the 20s. I suppose he's favoring the Pedio over the Lacto there but I could be wrong. His Lambic recipe has 13 IBUs.

As for alcohol, I wouldn't worry about it at that percentage. I have a sour that's about 8% and had no problem souring or fermenting. That was with WLP665. And, while I cannot say what strains they used and they are very unlikely to be the same strains you'll have, BFM Abbay de Saint Bon-Chien is a really lovely 11% abv sour. I've had a bunch of strong sours over the year as well.

Here's that Bon-Chien.

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/bfm-abbaye-de-saint-bon-chien-2012/216852/

I personally wouldn't make a starter. No need. They usually recommend not making one so you don't upset the balance of microbes. Can't say if that's true, but I go without the starter and relax if it takes a day or two to get started.

 

[sweetcell]

This is some good stuff. I'll trade out the WLP677 for the WLP655. From this thread I've learned that Lacto is inhibited by high IBU's but what about Brett? I don't mind if it takes a while to sour. The recipe I am using has 22.2 IBU's is that still good? Also the estimated abv is 7%. Is there any issue with that? Since I want to use WLP655 should I still do a starter? What is the recommended size?

brett not affected by IBUs. i would go lower than your 22 IBUs to give the lacto a chance. lacto can be alcohol sensitive, traditional belgian sours are generally under 6%... your call. don't do a starter, just pitch directly.

as mentioned previously, The Yeast Bay's Melange is a much better souring blend.