True or False?

[Revvy]

I can tell you right now that your LHBS has a larger profit margin on extract than grain....

I call BS. I just showed this to my friend who owns one of the busiest HB shops in the metro Detroit area, he laughed and said this was the stupidest "conspiracy theory" he's ever heard. He said he makes the same profit margin on either Grain or Extract. (which isn't much he said.) He said you don't go into this business expecting to make money.

SMH

 

[Mainer]

I call BS. I just showed this to my friend who owns one of the busiest HB shops in the metro Detroit area, he laughed and said this was the stupidest "conspiracy theory" he's ever heard. He said he makes the same profit margin on either Grain or Extract. (which isn't much he said.) He said you don't go into this business expecting to make money.

SMH

If I get any pressure from my LHBS guys, it's pressure to go all-grain. And it's not, like, a hard sell because they're looking to make more money. It's more like the peer pressure of me thinking, "Wow, you LHBS guys are really cool beer guys, and I want you to think I'm a cool beer guy, too!"

EDIT: I *do* think somebody's getting a higher profit on kits vs. grain or extract, but I'm pretty sure it's Brewer's Best, not my local shop.

 

[Revvy]

If I get any pressure from my LHBS guys, it's pressure to go all-grain. And it's not, like, a hard sell because they're looking to make more money. It's more like the peer pressure of me thinking, "Wow, you LHBS guys are really cool beer guys, and I want you to think I'm a cool beer guy, too!"

EDIT: I *do* think somebody's getting a higher profit on kits vs. grain or extract, but I'm pretty sure it's Brewer's Best, not my local shop.

Yeah my shop regularly teaches all grain classes, and does demos. In fact they've got a full slate of things like that setup for next Saturday's big brew day.

 

[Mainer]

Yeah my shop regularly teaches all grain classes, and does demos. In fact they've got a full slate of things like that setup for next Saturday's big brew day.

Woah... I just found out my LHBS sells & ships their own proprietary kits for clones of high-rated local brews, designed by the breweries. This might be dangerous.

https://squareup.com/store/maine-brewing-supply/

($100 for the Bissell Brothers Swish clone, though? I know it's one of those White Whale beers that people all over the country come hunting for, but jesus, that's expensive.)

 

[Homercidal]

I don't think the LHBS gets more margin on extract supplies. It just simply costs more to make it than malted grain. That cost is passed down through the sales chain.

 

[Clonefan94]

My main reason for going all grain is the control I have over a recipe. You can get more precise tweaks with all grain that are just not achievable with extract. You definitely can brew great beers with extract, but I feel more in control with all grain.

And to be honest, even though my brew days are now longer, I find them to be easier and more relaxed as the boil is pretty straightforward now as opposed to when to extract. When to add the extract, cutting the heat, stirring well, heating it back up to boil and adding the last bit of extract.

 

[jr72023]

I call BS. I just showed this to my friend who owns one of the busiest HB shops in the metro Detroit area, he laughed and said this was the stupidest "conspiracy theory" he's ever heard. He said he makes the same profit margin on either Grain or Extract. (which isn't much he said.) He said you don't go into this business expecting to make money.

SMH

The same profit margin. Let's suppose he marks things up 30%. Are we to believe that 30% of $20 is the same as 30% of $45? If he makes the same margin he actually makes more when he sells extract. Simple math, not a conspiracy.

If he doesn't see that simple fact, it is a good thing he didn't go into this business expecting to make money.

The flip side of the coin is that when a customer does go all grain, they become addicted to the equipment which would be a definite plus for the seller.

 

[brewcat]

True

I've been converting my old extract recipes to all grain. They end up basically tasting the same. I doubt I could tell them apart if I didn't know the process. Color might be the only difference.

 

[Morrey]

True

I've been converting my old extract recipes to all grain. They end up basically tasting the same. I doubt I could tell them apart if I didn't know the process. Color might be the only difference.

I can't answer the cost factor of AG to extract, but everyone says go AG cause it's so much cheaper and tastes so much better. I do know there is a ton of extract sold now days so there must be a reason. Convenience of extract? Set-up costs detract from AG?

 

[PADave]

I can't answer the cost factor of AG to extract, but everyone says go AG cause it's so much cheaper and tastes so much better. I do know there is a ton of extract sold now days so there must be a reason. Convenience of extract? Set-up costs detract from AG?

AG is definitely cheaper than extract. Just look at the same kit extract vs. AG, and extract is always going to be more expensive. I can tell a difference between the two, whether it's brews I've done, or others have done. Extract always has a "twang" to it. Convenience has something to do with it. How many beginning brewers take the next step to AG? BIAB is the little gem that takes no more effort than extract, minimal equipment, but yields superior results.

 

[brewcat]

I can't answer the cost factor of AG to extract, but everyone says go AG cause it's so much cheaper and tastes so much better. I do know there is a ton of extract sold now days so there must be a reason. Convenience of extract? Set-up costs detract from AG?

AG is definitely cheaper once you get by startup costs. I think my recipes end up 25% or so less without bulk buys. Extract is cheaper to start, more convenient, less space issues and more accessible. Maybe easier to kit?

Personally, I like my AG day better. I had basically maxed out my learning with extract. I guess I just didn't notice a big jump in my own recipes going from extract to all-grain. I was utilizing partial mash and full boil. I don't think I've shared any beer since going all-grain so maybe my family will notice.

 

[kh54s10]

Woah... I just found out my LHBS sells & ships their own proprietary kits for clones of high-rated local brews, designed by the breweries. This might be dangerous.

https://squareup.com/store/maine-brewing-supply/

($100 for the Bissell Brothers Swish clone, though? I know it's one of those White Whale beers that people all over the country come hunting for, but jesus, that's expensive.)

I don't think they will be selling a ton of those kits. If you do all grain you could work up your own clone for less than half maybe even 1/4 the price. The next thing I saw was $10 shipping and ships within 7 days. That is ridiculous.. They should ship no later than the next day!!!

I can't answer the cost factor of AG to extract, but everyone says go AG cause it's so much cheaper and tastes so much better. I do know there is a ton of extract sold now days so there must be a reason. Convenience of extract? Set-up costs detract from AG?

All grain is far cheaper, especially if you buy in bulk and compare that to extract kits. What is sold for $50 can be put together all grain for less than $25.

The convenience comes in 2 levels. Extracts can be done without an hour mash time. It doesn't require anything more than a steeping bag and a smaller pot than needed for all grain.

BIAB is the next step which typically requires a larger pot and larger bags. But less equipment than traditional all grain.

Traditional all grain requires a pot for heating water and a mash tun as a minimum. Hot liquor tank, mash tun and boil kettle for more convenience. The upgrades can be pretty much endless. Bigger, shinier, electric, etc.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Obviously, the answer is true and is conditional. For me the answer is false. I started with a small kit with steeping grains and DME turned out very drinkable no off flavors but not characteristic of the style. My second was a DME hefeweizen kit and it wasn't very good at all. Some weird off flavor that intensified in the bottle. Kind hearted friends drank and thanked, but I knew it wasn't good beer. Frustrated with the of taste and bad color I bought a can of hopped LME, mixed it in the fermentation bucket with enough hot water to get the can empty, pitched the dry yeast. (I know) No hot break, no cold break, no control of bitterness and it turned out pretty good. That process to me was like mixing a can of Campbell's soup with water and calling it cooking. So after just 3 extract brews I got some grain kits and did BIAB. I'm glad I did. I'm making nice flavorful and drinkable beer. Extract has its place, but for me and my small batch brew grains are working better, and eventually I'll be coming up with my own recipies. And, spent grain bread is pretty good too.

 

[Morrey]

Obviously, the answer is true and is conditional. For me the answer is false. I started with a small kit with steeping grains and DME turned out very drinkable no off flavors but not characteristic of the style. My second was a DME hefeweizen kit and it wasn't very good at all. Some weird off flavor that intensified in the bottle. Kind hearted friends drank and thanked, but I knew it wasn't good beer. Frustrated with the of taste and bad color I bought a can of hopped LME, mixed it in the fermentation bucket with enough hot water to get the can empty, pitched the dry yeast. (I know) No hot break, no cold break, no control of bitterness and it turned out pretty good. That process to me was like mixing a can of Campbell's soup with water and calling it cooking. So after just 3 extract brews I got some grain kits and did BIAB. I'm glad I did. I'm making nice flavorful and drinkable beer. Extract has its place, but for me and my small batch brew grains are working better, and eventually I'll be coming up with my own recipies. And, spent grain bread is pretty good too.

I have made enough extract beers to think that LME or DME beers are darker in color that their AG counterparts. Maybe that is why my extract vs AG challenger wants to see if I can pick up on this factor. Unless he did most of his extracts as late additions, I think it will be easy to spot visually. I may also be able to detect the "reconstituted" taste (if that is a proper term) of the extract. Not saying that extract won't be just as good or maybe better, but I do think I can tell the difference.

With that said, I've acquired a larger pot and burner for a BIAB brew. I'll be able to control small details with own recipes. I'll probably keep some DME around for starters and OG adjustments, but I think I have officially shifted into another gear.

*** I like the idea of spent grain bread..cool! Wonder if I broadcast some spent grain in my flower beds under the bird feeders, will birds eat it after it dries??

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Oh yes the birds will enjoy it. I have a friend that makes dog treats with the grain too. Asked me it there were hops in the grain, since hops are not so good for dogs. My dog always sat nearby when I opened a bottle of beer... Little booze hound, lol.

 

[TorMag]

AG is definitely cheaper once you get by startup costs. I think my recipes end up 25% or so less without bulk buys. Extract is cheaper to start, more convenient, less space issues and more accessible. Maybe easier to kit?

Personally, I like my AG day better. I had basically maxed out my learning with extract. I guess I just didn't notice a big jump in my own recipes going from extract to all-grain. I was utilizing partial mash and full boil. I don't think I've shared any beer since going all-grain so maybe my family will notice.

So where do you go to get the cheap bulk grains? I just bought the ingredients for my 3rd AG from my LHBS and the cost was $45. Nothing special in the ingredients.

 

[kh54s10]

Oh yes the birds will enjoy it. I have a friend that makes dog treats with the grain too. Asked me it there were hops in the grain, since hops are not so good for dogs. My dog always sat nearby when I opened a bottle of beer... Little booze hound, lol.

Everyone always says that critters will love the spent grains. I guess so, but in my experience - NO... I dump my spent grains in my compost pile. I have never seen any evidence of anything but worms getting to it, and that is after it has been there a while. I put spent grains on the ground below my feeders and the birds would eat only stuff that was NOT on the spent grains.

 

[kh54s10]

So where do you go to get the cheap bulk grains? I just bought the ingredients for my 3rd AG from my LHBS and the cost was $45. Nothing special in the ingredients.

My LHBS sells bags of 2 row for about $50. (group buys much lower) The same LHBS sells the 2 row by the pound for about $1.25 or $1.50? I buy hops online for about $1 per ounce. At the LHBS it is average about $1.50 per ounce.

You need to shop around and compare prices. My average brew is about $30, this includes the $15-$20 lawnmower beers as well as the 10+ abv beers.

 

[DrunkPoetry]

AG all day bro - you can build a decent mash tun for around $40 - here's what you will need -
1. $25 48 qt cooler (rectangular is easier to work with for batch sparging)
2. $5 16" stainless steel braided hose
3. $5 nylon inline valve 1/2"
4. $5 6 ft 1/2 hose
5. a 1/2" brass coupler

This video will give you a good overview of batch sparging using this set up - [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e24WLKJgCXc[/ame]

 

[rtracer]

After my first 4 extract batches, I will be kegging my first 2 all grain BAIB batches.
My extract batches came out good, but they all kinda had the same taste to me, not bad, but kinda similar sweetness.
It was fun brewing the first few batches of extract, but to me, it just didn't really feel like I was actually making beer. More like baking a cake from a box.

With my first two all grains, I made the recipes, hell I made wort out of a bag of grains. Have not even tried them yet, but I am proud that I actually MADE beer.

Now, if they turn out like crap I may have other things to say LOL

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Everyone always says that critters will love the spent grains. I guess so, but in my experience - NO... I dump my spent grains in my compost pile. I have never seen any evidence of anything but worms getting to it, and that is after it has been there a while. I put spent grains on the ground below my feeders and the birds would eat only stuff that was NOT on the spent grains.

Interesting, I put them out in January no other seed, suet or food, and the birds ate it. A few people have dogs that love it and horses enjoy the sweets too. They do sour quickly though, and are great for compost, which still make them more useful than tossing them in the trash.

 

[Morrey]

As OP, I wanted to post the "True of False" test has been reviewed on General Beer Discussions: AG vs Extract

 

[tracyk]

I think it is just a matter of preference or convenience. I think we all first started with an extract kit. I know I did and I was completely amazed at how easy it was to make beer. I think I went through all the beginner nightmares, did I brew it right, add enough yeast, did the fermentation go okay, and did I add enough priming sugar when I bottled. But you know what the Amber Ale that I first made came out pretty darn good. I kept doing extract kits for a year and was definitely improving on my technique. I starting reading more and learning more and I eventually joined a club which help immensely.

By this time I felt confident enough to make the next jump to all grain. You will know when you are ready to make the jump. For me I like the thought that I can tweak a recipe to my liking. To start working with my water to improve the beers that I already make. Now don't get me wrong, I have had days where I am brewing all grain and it seems like nothing is going right, but you know what in the end I did make beer and I enjoyed that beer because I made it to how I like it.

I do know one thing the time it takes to brew all grain is a lot longer than doing an extract kit. It is just something that you will have to decide...

 

[Jsbeckton]

I have prob made 100 batches of beer now and I would say the three extract kits I made were probably my three worst beers . YMMV though.

 

[Amadeo38]

Not sure if someone hit this topic in the replies, but I'd like to chime in on the "extract beers can win competitions" comment. From judges I've spoken to, it's really not tough to medal. Most of what people submit to competitions is garbage - infected, astringent, off-flavors galore, or not even close to style. I wouldn't say my beers are great, but I've never entered a comp and not gotten a medal. I'm sure I could do the same with extract, but it's sure damn fun doing all grain and that's why I do this!

 

[Morrey]

I have prob made 100 batches of beer now and I would say the three extract kits I made were probably my three worst beers . YMMV though.

I'd say my extract beers would be my least favorite too. When I grind my own grain and control the entire process, I feel much more a part of the outcome.

 

[Pappers_]

. . . is his advice that extract beers can equal all-grain beers in taste True or False in your opinion?

The answer to the precise question posed above (the key word being 'can') is yes. Its not really an opinion. Objectively, extract beers have defeated all-grain beers in competitions.

 

[Pappers_]

From judges I've spoken to, it's really not tough to medal. Most of what people submit to competitions is garbage - infected, astringent, off-flavors galore, or not even close to style.

I cannot agree with your comment about competitions, it is absolutely false to say that most of what people submit is garbage. At many of the competitions I judge at, a majority of the beers in the flights I evaluate score in the Very Good range (in the 30s) and very few beers have rampant flaws - those that do stand out.

If that statement is false, then your reasoning from that statement doesn't hold water. Winning a medal at a competition matters. Congratulations on the medals you've won.

 

[worlddivides]

I can say with 100% confidence and absolutely ZERO doubt that, yes, extract beers can be just as good or even better than all-grain beers.

Now, when it comes to beer quality, assuming you use high-quality, fresh ingredients and you do it skillfully, using good practices, good recipes, and so on, you can make extremely good beers with both. And I personally think it is true that, if you do it right, you will be unable to tell the difference in taste between an extract and all-grain beer. Now, I've never used "old" extract or "low-quality" extract, so I've never tasted the "extract twang" that I always hear people talking about. Nor have I ever made a beer with "just extract" (i.e. no specialty grains, no adjuncts, etc.). My very first beer was a mix of liquid malt extract, dry malt extract, specialty grains, and Belgian candi syrup. I imagine that so-called twang's either a characteristic of stale extract or low-quality extract, but if the stuff is made properly, it really is no different than what you make with all-grain.

Now, that's just talking about flavor.

I think it's similar to the question of "Which is better? Dry yeast or liquid yeast?" Well, most dry yeasts nowadays are of exceptionally high quality and can make amazing beers. As much as I love a lot of liquid yeasts out there, I still use a lot of US-05. HOWEVER, if you want variety, you will want to go with liquid yeasts, because there are so many more varieties and types of liquid yeast than there are of dry yeast, and the only way you're going to get a certain flavor through fermentation is by going with the right yeast, and if that yeast doesn't exist in dry yeast form, then you need to go with liquid.

In other words, all-grain is definitely the way to go if you want the maximum amount of control. You can make creative beers with extract, but you have a lot more freedom with all-grain.

I think Revvy's first post in this thread pretty much says it all.

 

[ChelisHubby]

All grain will let you experiment more with other flavors and in the end you will be very happy with the results. You will find yourself much more knowledgeable after you have brewed all grain for a while. For what it is worth I would do a 3 vessel brew system if you have the space for storage.

 

[Amadeo38]

I cannot agree with your comment about competitions, it is absolutely false to say that most of what people submit is garbage. At many of the competitions I judge at, a majority of the beers in the flights I evaluate score in the Very Good range (in the 30s) and very few beers have rampant flaws - those that do stand out.

If that statement is false, then your reasoning from that statement doesn't hold water. Winning a medal at a competition matters. Congratulations on the medals you've won.

I didn't mean to sound negative, and now that I re-read what I wrote, I definitely did. Sorry about that.

I suppose the bad ones are what sticks out, so that's what I hear about from folks who judge at comps. As far as medals go, I've only submitted twice and both were stouts, which are my specialty. I'd probably get tore up if I submitted most other styles...

 

[Kharnynb]

it totally depends if you want to get into mashing your own wort.

All grain has more choice, more flexibility, and biab is pretty straight-forward, but it is one extra step and about an hour more on the brewday.

As for taste, you can make great beer from extract, all-grain or even prehopped kits.

last winter i made a chocolate/vanilla stout from an old coopers kit i picked up at sell-out(near end-date of the kit), it was a great beer, nice for winter, could make a similar one myself from grain, but this turned out cheaper and easier on the side of my normal brewing.

 

[bendog15]

You'll hear many different opinions on this topic. All grainers swear by all grain, and vice versa.
The beauty of this age we live in is that extract is very top notch quality these days- not your fathers can of DME. I firmly believe that extract brewing can produce some great beer. Award winning beer. I brewed extract kits for at least 3 years- over 50 kits at least! And only had one batch turn out bad.
I finally reached a point where I was getting a little bored with extract kits. If I didn't move to all grain I probably would have quit the hobby.
That being said, after I made the move to all grain, I couldn't be happier. I like the way the beer tastes from all grain (just a personal preference) and since I brew so frequently, it's much more cost effective. I like designing recipes, more control over my final product, and the knowledge that I made the beer, from grain to glass.
Last point I'll make is to echo what's already been said on this post. This hobby reflects the brewer and his/her methods. Good cleaning and sanitizing, pitching healthy adequate yeast, fermenting at proper temps, and patience is what turns out a great product. I've tasted phenomenal extract beers made with love and care; I've also had awful all grain beer made by lazy slobs. It's up to the brewer.

 

[specharka]

It sounds like a lot of people are tiptoeing around their convictions. To me, there's really no debate. There's two reasons that commercial breweries unilaterally brew all grain beers: cost and quality control. It's inconceivable to think that the process of manufacturing extract doesn't alter the chemical composition of the wort. So why are we pretending that they are equivalent?

You simply cannot make the same quality of beer using extract over all grain.

 

[Kee]

There's two reasons that commercial breweries unilaterally brew all grain beers: cost and quality control.

So the bean counters at Anheuser-Busch InBev are sitting around a table asking "Should we do extract or all grain?"

 

[Morrey]

You'll hear many different opinions on this topic. All grainers swear by all grain, and vice versa.
The beauty of this age we live in is that extract is very top notch quality these days- not your fathers can of DME. I firmly believe that extract brewing can produce some great beer. Award winning beer. I brewed extract kits for at least 3 years- over 50 kits at least! And only had one batch turn out bad.
I finally reached a point where I was getting a little bored with extract kits. If I didn't move to all grain I probably would have quit the hobby.
That being said, after I made the move to all grain, I couldn't be happier. I like the way the beer tastes from all grain (just a personal preference) and since I brew so frequently, it's much more cost effective. I like designing recipes, more control over my final product, and the knowledge that I made the beer, from grain to glass.
Last point I'll make is to echo what's already been said on this post. This hobby reflects the brewer and his/her methods. Good cleaning and sanitizing, pitching healthy adequate yeast, fermenting at proper temps, and patience is what turns out a great product. I've tasted phenomenal extract beers made with love and care; I've also had awful all grain beer made by lazy slobs. It's up to the brewer.

I started extract brewing in the 80's where the canned extracts were not only limited but of less than stellar quality. Of course things have changed for the better.

For me, AG offers complete control and huge cost differentials over extract. I noted a 3# bag of light DME was $15 in my LHBS, so not sure if this is a standard price or not. BUT, I harvest my yeast slurry, grind my own grains and use small hop bills in my Pilsners. My last 5.5G batch cost me $15 which is prob 1/3 of the cost of a comparable extract brew. Even tho extract has come along way, AG is a much better product in my humble opinion.

 

[DennisinIowa]

I like to have total control with AG brewing.
First till ten acres, twenty for a 10 gallon batch.
Just kidding. I have been brewing for the last 5 years extract, and am making some damn fine beers.
Time, temp and patience are everything. The last two beers I did went over 5 months in bucket.
DennisinIowa

 

[Morrey]

I like to have total control with AG brewing.
First till ten acres, twenty for a 10 gallon batch.
Just kidding. I have been brewing for the last 5 years extract, and am making some damn fine beers.
Time, temp and patience are everything. The last two beers I did went over 5 months in bucket.
DennisinIowa

My LHBS buddies and I just did a blind taste test with AG beer against extract beer. I posted the results under a post called blind taste test. Extract, in the hands of a skilled brewer, can create exceptional beers. No doubt.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=583840