American IPA Trilium Melcher Street Clone

[stonebrewer]

Nope. I regularly have been using 6ish oz of hops and just brewed a batch with 8 ounces. It just finished up, but there is no room in the kegerator currently to tap and taste it. I am looking forward to it!!

I find a lot of the NEIPAs I drink are slightly sweet, and yet are in the 50-70IBU range...and have little perceived bitterness.

 

[Mothman]

I just looked up a handful of beers in the style that I've tried and like... and they are anywhere from 15 to 70 IBU.... so I'll just go with what feels right at the time. lol

 

[Biscuits]

I'm brewing the original recipe....still up in the air whether I want to use WLP007 or 1318....also wish my spunding valve was in so I could ferment under pressure but I want to enter this into a comp which means I have to brew this weekend.

 

[anteater8]

Just bought the ingredients to brew this, but I'll be using Imperial Juice which I really enjoy in a NEIPA. I've brewed Northeast IPA on this forum over a dozen times now so I'm excited to try something a little different.

 

[Biscuits]

Put this in the keg yesterday. Aroma was out of this world and the sample tasted the same....minus some hop burn from the hops still in suspension...but once they settle this is going to be a winner.

 

[Mothman]

I plan on trying this recipe on Sunday, I had planned on grabbing a can of Imperial Juice yeast from my local homebrew shop, but they didn't have any in stock.... they are not a great shop, limited supplies, best I found in what they found was Imperial Barbarian, so I grabbed that.

I believe Barbarian is a Conan strain, and while I found some discussion of Conan in this thread, I couldn't find comments from people who used it, and their impressions.

As I understand it, Conan strains kind of overpower the hop aroma and flavour, but I don't want to have to wait to order in something else so I'll be giving it a try.

 

[degivens]

I plan on trying this recipe on Sunday, I had planned on grabbing a can of Imperial Juice yeast from my local homebrew shop, but they didn't have any in stock.... they are not a great shop, limited supplies, best I found in what they found was Imperial Barbarian, so I grabbed that.

I believe Barbarian is a Conan strain, and while I found some discussion of Conan in this thread, I couldn't find comments from people who used it, and their impressions.

As I understand it, Conan strains kind of overpower the hop aroma and flavour, but I don't want to have to wait to order in something else so I'll be giving it a try.

i have tried this recipe with conan and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as 1318. definitely get a more pleasant fruitiness with 1318 in my experience — although many swear that conan at certain temps produces some awesome peach (i’ve had comercial examples of this just none with my own homebrew). also have tried farmhouses experimental ipa blend and that was my least fave of the 3 fwiw.

 

[Mothman]

i have tried this recipe with conan and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as 1318. definitely get a more pleasant fruitiness with 1318 in my experience — although many swear that conan at certain temps produces some awesome peach (i’ve had comercial examples of this just none with my own homebrew). also have tried farmhouses experimental ipa blend and that was my least fave of the 3 fwiw.

If I could get some peach, that'd be great. The Barbarian yeast description says it gives stone fruit esters, which will be nice if it actually accomplishes it.

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

 

[degivens]

If I could get some peach, that'd be great. The Barbarian yeast description says it gives stone fruit esters, which will be nice if it actually accomplishes it.

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

Awesome, curious to see how it comes out!

 

[grassfeeder]

I touched base with Imperial (makers of Barbarian) and they suggest fermenting at around 68F to really push the fruity esters, so that's what I'll be targeting.

I second that, start at 68 and climb it to 72 at the tail end.

 

[Mothman]

I second that, start at 68 and climb it to 72 at the tail end.

By "climb to 72 at the tail end", would you say hold at 68 for ~ a week, then let it move up to 72 for ~ a week, then package? Or hold 68 longer, and just bump to 72 for a few days? Or only hold at 68 for a couple days and ramp up once active fermentation settles down?

Hoping I can hit my temperatures. I mostly ferment in my little brewing cave (aka storage room) low to mid-60's and use a cooler bag to maintain that, especially in spring-summer. I'll have to use living area room temp. to hold it in the high 60's at this time of year.

Our living area is usually around 65F, and I'm banking on active fermentation pushing that up to ~70F, which I can tweak down to 68F with a bit of ice in the cooler bag, then pull the ice and let it finish at room temp. Backup will be the laundry room with the door closed, and the heat bumped up.

Surely SWMBO won't mind a big Coolbrewing bag in the corner of the living room or laundry room. lol

 

[grassfeeder]

By "climb to 72 at the tail end", would you say hold at 68 for ~ a week, then let it move up to 72 for ~ a week, then package? Or hold 68 longer, and just bump to 72 for a few days? Or only hold at 68 for a couple days and ramp up once active fermentation settles down?

Hoping I can hit my temperatures. I mostly ferment in my little brewing cave (aka storage room) low to mid-60's and use a cooler bag to maintain that, especially in spring-summer. I'll have to use living area room temp. to hold it in the high 60's at this time of year.

Our living area is usually around 65F, and I'm banking on active fermentation pushing that up to ~70F, which I can tweak down to 68F with a bit of ice in the cooler bag, then pull the ice and let it finish at room temp. Backup will be the laundry room with the door closed, and the heat bumped up.

Surely SWMBO won't mind a big Coolbrewing bag in the corner of the living room or laundry room. lol

with NEIPA's I typically hold at 68 for about 5 days then ramp to 72 and hold for a couple of days. NEIPA's finish out quite fast, much faster than a normal west coast ipa. I typically go grain to keg in about 10 days and carb and let it condition for a week before going to glass.

 

[jpLV]

I agree you'll want to keep your target temp stable during active fermentation. Once things start slowing down thats when I normally start bumping up the temp slowly. Helps with getting better attenuation and also rouses the yeast so it continues to clean up after itself to get rid of off flavors.

 

[Biscuits]

So my impressions of my version of this beer (original recipe):

I have never had Melcher St. or any Trillium beer for that matter (pity me and send them please) but to me this beer turned out more like an East meets West coast type of beer. It is a well balanced bitterness/juicyness with a nice body that finishes dry. However, it lacks the creamy mouthfeel and the typical murkyness that is common in most modern NEIPAs. Initially, I was sort of disappointed with it after taking my first few drinks...but once I removed the idea that I was drinking a NEIPA and realized I was just drinking a DIPA, suddenly it became a wonderful beer. It was also at that moment that it struck me what it reminded me of....I have to get a can and do a side by side, but from memory this clone strongly reminds me of Two Roads Brewing's Two Juicy - pictured.

*Disclaimer: It is not beyond possibility that I screwed up some process or didn't do something right and it through the intended product off course.

For the sake of being thorough, I did 2:1 calcium chloride : sulfate @ 180 ppm:60 ppm, I whirlpooled for 30 minutes and added one ouce of the flamout hops every 10 minutes, and I did one dryhop charge of the total 6Oz @ 48 hours into fermentation to promote biotransformation. I also cold crashed at 37 degrees for 24 hours before kegging.

 

[Mothman]

I finally got around to brewing this (scaled down recipe based on recipe in post #123, used Imperial Barbarian yeast) on Sunday.

I had lousy efficiency in my mash so ended up topping up with about half a pound of dry extract, might mess with the resulting beer a bit, but I'm hoping not by too much.

Pitched yeast Sunday evening, and it was starting to rock and roll Monday morning, and today is going strong.

Plan is to dry hop tomorrow evening.

Question about the dryhopping... I plan on hopping using a large bag to dryhop in, for ease of removing the hop debris.

From what I understand of this style, ideally I'd probably be looking at packaging the beer around day 10 or so.

But, due to my day to day schedule, I likely wouldn't be able to do so until day 14 (assuming it's finished).

Given that, am I ok leaving the dryhops in until packaging, or should I remove the hops after by the end of day 10-ish? Or will it make a difference?

I've read some conflicting info about dryhopping too long changing up the flavour profile, and I more or less have come to the conclusion that normally I probably wouldn't really notice the difference... but with a large dryhop dosage like this, I wonder if it might matter more.

 

[stonebrewer]

I have removed them, left them in the entire fermentation, and left them in until the keg kicks with no issues with off or grassy flavors. Others have reported the opposite. It really is a flip of the coin, but every time I have flipped it (50 times or more) it has come up heads. YMMV.

 

[Mothman]

I like that answer... just run with it and all will likely be fine. Thanks!

 

[anteater8]

I finally got around to brewing this (scaled down recipe based on recipe in post #123, used Imperial Barbarian yeast) on Sunday.

I had lousy efficiency in my mash so ended up topping up with about half a pound of dry extract, might mess with the resulting beer a bit, but I'm hoping not by too much.

Pitched yeast Sunday evening, and it was starting to rock and roll Monday morning, and today is going strong.

Plan is to dry hop tomorrow evening.

Question about the dryhopping... I plan on hopping using a large bag to dryhop in, for ease of removing the hop debris.

From what I understand of this style, ideally I'd probably be looking at packaging the beer around day 10 or so.

But, due to my day to day schedule, I likely wouldn't be able to do so until day 14 (assuming it's finished).

Given that, am I ok leaving the dryhops in until packaging, or should I remove the hops after by the end of day 10-ish? Or will it make a difference?

I've read some conflicting info about dryhopping too long changing up the flavour profile, and I more or less have come to the conclusion that normally I probably wouldn't really notice the difference... but with a large dryhop dosage like this, I wonder if it might matter more.

I dry hop on day 3 and leave them in until day 14 when I keg for all my NEIPA's and they all turn out great. I'll be kegging this recipe on Sunday, excited to see how it turns out.

 

[Mothman]

Dry hopped my batch this morning, which was the morning of Day 3, about 62 hrs after pitching .

I was debating doing it last night as strong fermentation seemed to be starting to tail off, but decided to wait until today, and I may have missed it a bit. By this morning, it had calmed right down, krausen had completely fallen, and I checked the gravity , and it was already down to 1.018 (from 1.057... this Barbarian yeast doesn't fool around). I figure I should end around 1.014-15 maybe (guessing based on reported attenuation of the yeast), so there is a little ways to still go... just not sure how much of the biotransformation magic will happen.

 

[couchsending]

Adding a DH addition with more than 4-6 points to go is just wasting hops. So much will get scrubbed off with Co2 and oils pulled down with floccing yeast.

All the Street beers are one DH charge at the very end of fermentation unless it’s a DDH variant.

Someone was talking about building up yeast and getting a tartness from a Trillium Cans, thinking it was infection. That is the hallmark of 007/S04/1098. It produces a decent amount of lactic acid during fermentation especially at temps close to 68 or above. It is known for its “tart” flavor profile. If you don’t want much of that it has to be fermented at below 64. It has always been rumored this was their yeast. It’s also the dominant yeast in Treehouse beers. Although JC said they have changed yeast three times since the original yeast they used in Fort Point. It’s definiteiy not 1318. 1335 would be another possibility.

 

[grassfeeder]

Adding a DH addition with more than 4-6 points to go is just wasting hops. So much will get scrubbed off with Co2 and oils pulled down with floccing yeast.

Might be the only time I've ever heard this said.

 

[couchsending]

Might be the only time I've ever heard this said.

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

The highest gravity I have ever seen anyone mention adding hops is 1.020-1.022 I believe. This is for a beer with a FG of 1.015. That is from the Weldwerks Juicy Bits recipe.

 

[grassfeeder]

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

I recant my previous statement as my math was quite a bit off in my head. That should put things right about the last .25 of fermentation I would imagine which I believe to be pretty optimal.

 

[stonebrewer]

Try and find a recipe from any pro brewer anywhere that mentions anything to the contrary. I have never seen one. Not from Nate, JC, weldwerks, great notion, Bissell, Firestone, etc. I have heard of Fullers adding hops to the fermenter before adding wort to their ESB I believe. But that’s it.

The highest gravity I have ever seen anyone mention adding hops is 1.020-1.022 I believe. This is for a beer with a FG of 1.015. That is from the Weldwerks Juicy Bits recipe.

While I don't doubt your research, there are some counterpoints to make. JC actually addressed the CO2 stripping to me via email and told me to ferment under pressure to prevent this. I believe it was Mitch Steele who coined the term, or at least introduced it to a wide audience, biotransformation, where there is interaction between hops and yeast. Terpenoid levels have been shown to skyrocket in beers where this biotransformation occurred, with a result of more complex hop aromas, as non-aromatic glycosides are transformed into aromatic terpenoids. Interesting thing to note is that yeast vary widely in their ability to increase terpenoid levels, so some yeasts are definitely better at creating complex hop aromas. For me, the jury is still out on when to add hops, and experiments do show that you get very different beers using all the same ingredients, but putting the hops in at either high krausen or once fermentation has ended (or nearly so)...

 

[couchsending]

Matt Bryndlson I believe was the person who popularized dry hopping with yeast activity but I could be wrong. I’m sure there are others before him but he is the most well known advocate for it. Yet he always mentions right before Terminal Gravity not any earlier. I’ve listened to countless podcasts that feature Matt and read lots of articles on him and his methods.

I do believe biotransformation is thing but I still believe doing it too early is a waste. There is still plenty of yeast activity at the end of fermentation to get plenty of transformation but there is less yeast to drag down oils and other volatiles when it floccs. I have never seen any professional brewer advocate for dry hopping at high krausen.

What specifically did JC mention about fermenting under pressure? Was he speaking in reference to spunding? Bunging with a few points left and dry hopping at the same time to naturally carbonate and not blow off aroma? Cause I’ve seen him reference that. I don’t think they’re fermenting under pressure the whole time thoughz. I know Nate from Treehouse has mentioned that they tried a whole ferment under pressure but didn’t like it so they don’t do it anymore.

 

[couchsending]

Also in reference to the whole Trillium yeast that was built up being really tart or Sour... just poured a little of my starter of 007 out and measured the PH.. 3.88

007/S04/1098 produces a lot of acid, especially when fermented warm. Some say that could add to the perception of Juice??? To lessen the acid production I believe it needs to be fermented lower.. 62ish based on what I’ve read.

 

[Mothman]

Did another gravity check this morning (day 6) and it dropped further than I predicted, after 1.013 now, which I'm happy with, hopefully a little more of the magic biotransformation took place.

Will do another check in a couple days to confirm it's done.

On that note, I've read lots (including grassfeeders post here a few days ago) that NE IPAs tend to finish fast.

Why is that? What is it about NE IPA recipes that get them to finish up more quickly?

 

[grassfeeder]

Did another gravity check this morning (day 6) and it dropped further than I predicted, after 1.013 now, which I'm happy with, hopefully a little more of the magic biotransformation took place.

Will do another check in a couple days to confirm it's done.

On that note, I've read lots (including grassfeeders post here a few days ago) that NE IPAs tend to finish fast.

Why is that? What is it about NE IPA recipes that get them to finish up more quickly?

They tend to finish quicker only because the process of things is pushed up faster. People are dry hopping during an active fermentation versus waiting for it to finish up then hopping it. That along saves maybe 3-4 days. People also aren't trying to drop everything out of them to get that nice clear IPA either, subtract a couple more days. You get the idea.

 

[stonebrewer]

@couchsending - JC and I had several back and forth emails and basically he told me to ferment in a closed vessel under pressure to avoid the CO2 stripping the aroma off. I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

 

[Mothman]

Grassfeeder, thanks that makes total sense.

Back to the topic of my go at this recipe... Like I said I took a gravity sample this morning and I put the sample in the fridge for the day to drop out a bunch of the hop debris (lots of it as I took the sample from right in the thick of the hops).

I just poured off the sample and gave it a sniff and sip test.

The smell is great. Tons of stone fruit. The taste, we'll, not sure yet , as it was quite a bit more bitter than I hoped/expected.

The sample also is missing the murky haze of a NE IPA , but I've never had the original commercial beer so don't know how it compares.

Anyhoo, I'm excited for this to finish, get it carbonated, and see what the final result is like.

I'm bottling, so will be attempting to drink this fast before it goes sideways. Only expect to collect about 3 gallons into bottles so shouldn't be too challenging and I get through it.

 

[Mothman]

I did a follow up FG check yesterday evening, and I pulled my dry hop bag out (after 5 1/2 days DH, about 8 days total primary), as I want to give any debris that made it through the bag time to settle out before I bottle.

The gravity is continuing to work down... it is down to 1.011 now, which is actually where Beersmith predicted it to be for my scaled and tweaked recipe. So the beer will be drier than initially intended, but I'm hopeful it will still be tastey.

The aroma is still really nice, definite peach-mango thing going on. Hydro sample is still on the bitter side in terms of taste, interested to see how it turns out once conditioned.

I still don't have any of the murky, orange-juice looking visuals that I was hoping for, and that I've seen in other's photos.

Is that an indicator that I dry-hopped too late? To recap, I started at 1.057, dry hopped on day 3 at which time it had dropped to 1.018, and it's currently down to 1.011. So the dry hops were in the mix for about the (so far) final 15% of fermentation.

 

[Mothman]

Bottled today..I'm setting my hopes pretty low, I don't think this one turned out properly, but I reserve judgement until they've had some time to condition.

Not hazy, but with a lot of suspended debris... Not sure if it's hops (I used a large bag for dryhops so weird of I got a bunch into the beer) or if it's maybe yeast that hadn't settled.

In either case it should settle out in the bottles.

Mainly I'm hoping the biting bitterness will mellow. Not sure where all the bitterness came from as I used very little hops in the boil, and what I did boil was mostly at the end.

 

[anteater8]

This turned out absolutely fantastic. It's been a while since I've had Trillium but its just what I want in a NEIPA. I will be using this base more often, and switching up the dry hops.

 

[marjen]

SO I am trying to decide whether to close my blow off valve and let some pressure build or not. I am 3 days in to my NE IPA. I added dry hops yesterday as my tilt indicated I was down around 1.018. Whats holding me back is a conversation with ss brew tech. They indicated that you really need to be down as close to 32 F as possible to properly carbonate. Now this is with a carb stone so not sure if that is the reason. If not they said the CO2 will not properly infuse with the beer. So I was worried about having it naturally carb at higher fermentation temps. I tried one batch like that in the fall and it ended up being super foamy but flat tasting at the same time. Really sucked because the beer had a good taste to it. So far I have left the blow off valve open, but originally was wanting to close it when I added the dry hops to keep the aroma in the container.

 

[stonebrewer]

I think they were talking about forced carb'ing not natural. You should be fine to close it.

 

[popquizkid]

@couchsending - JC and I had several back and forth emails and basically he told me to ferment in a closed vessel under pressure to avoid the CO2 stripping the aroma off. I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

Are you DH/spunding in primary? Curious as to what you ferment in -- corny keg? Have considered this, but with only 5 gallons in a corny that would really cut my batch yield down.

 

[stickyfinger]

@couchsending - I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

you ferment in a 5G keg? How full is the keg? do you add anti-foam? do you put a diptube screen on and cut the dip tube some? i assume you transfer off of the trub to another keg? doesn't it foam a lot when you do that, or are you racking to a new keg off of the trub on day 2-3 when you say "spund at day 2-3"? i wonder what percentage of the hop aroma you are theoretically trapping by spunding on day 2-3 to carbonate it vs doing an ordinary open fermentation.

 

[stonebrewer]

I ferment in 5G corny kegs. For larger batches, you can use multiple FVs and even chain them together to make one logical FV if that meets your needs. I do not use antifoam. I both trim my dip tubes and use screens. They are not as effective when using large hop loads, especially when a part of it is cryo. I have a new screen that I am going to try out next time I brew to see if I can get this working optimally, as I have had several clog on me and it was a pain getting it free and flowing again. Standard procedure now it to always hit the out dip tube with CO2 before trying to drain. I don't transfer off trub/yeast. I use one keg for brewing and fermentation (Zymatic) and xfer into a serving keg which I water purge. I do 3G batches with the Z. O2 control is paramount with that much headspace left in the SV. I get much better aroma spunding and naturally carbing, but it is still not exactly where I want it...I have a few ideas on that after talking to a local brewery and will share once I have done some experiments. I find that even using CO2 to push can ruin an NEIPA in a short time, so I don't use any CO2 unless I just can't get anymore beer out the keg...and then just as little as possible. Hope this helps!

 

[Biscuits]

I find that even using CO2 to push can ruin an NEIPA in a short time, so I don't use any CO2 unless I just can't get anymore beer out the keg...and then just as little as possible.

Sorry, but I am at a loss here...what do you mean? Are you saying you don't use CO2 to transfer, carbonate, or serve?

 

[stonebrewer]

Sorry, but I am at a loss here...what do you mean? Are you saying you don't use CO2 to transfer, carbonate, or serve?

More or less, yes to all...CO2 from a tank that is. I spund my FV and let pressure ramp way up at the end of fermentation. This carbs the beer naturally, and allows enough to start the push into the SV...doesn't take much pressure at all to do that as gravity helps this as well. So now my carbonated beer is in the SV, I put it in the kegerator, and I pour when chilled...and pour until I get almost no flow. Then, and only then, will I turn on any gas.