Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[crusader1612]

What guys?

And why?

 

[gifty74]

So the last 2 times I used 1318 my 1.070 OG beers finished at 1.016 & 1.018. Would really like to get them down to 1.010-1.014 range as there's just a touch more sweetness than I am trying to attain. I've made healthy starters with both. I just made a 1 gal starter with this latest smack pack, and it grew well and has a nice yeast cake in the gallon jar. I'm thinking of pitching a hydrated packet of US-05 about halfway (1.030 or so) into fermentation. My hope is that this would dry it out those last few points. Any thoughts on this approach? Maybe not how in how it would replicate Julius, but more on the general practice given this thread speaks a lot of 1318.

 

[couchsending]

So the last 2 times I used 1318 my 1.070 OG beers finished at 1.016 & 1.018. Would really like to get them down to 1.010-1.014 range as there's just a touch more sweetness than I am trying to attain. I've made healthy starters with both. I just made a 1 gal starter with this latest smack pack, and it grew well and has a nice yeast cake in the gallon jar. I'm thinking of pitching a hydrated packet of US-05 about halfway (1.030 or so) into fermentation. My hope is that this would dry it out those last few points. Any thoughts on this approach? Maybe not how in how it would replicate Julius, but more on the general practice given this thread speaks a lot of 1318.

With 1318 you need to either step mash say 145/154 or aim for a 148/149 Single Infusion to get attenuation that low. It also attenuates more on successive generations (especially when top cropping)

Are you adding all your dry hops during fermentation. It depends on the hop variety and even lot but you can sometimes get a full 1 Plato drop dry hopping after fermentation is compete due to the enzymes in hops.

If you want to add some US05 you could but I would make a starter (not on a stir plate) and pitch at full Krausen (great way to naturally carbonated it to)

 

[gifty74]

So wait until the 1318 is totally finished and flocs out, and then pitch a starter of US-05 at high krausen?

 

[gifty74]

Well, brewed this last Sun, pitched Sun night. On Thurs, when grav was at 1.024, I pitched a healthy 1.5L starter of US-05, which was 24 hrs grown. Should've been rearing and ready to go. Checked grav yesterday and it's seems to be stuck at just 1.020. Really wanted to get this down to 1.014 at least as I can taste the residual sweetness at 1.020. Thought the US-05 would push it down those last few pts, but appears it just couldn't handle that environment and either died off or went right to sleep. It's at 71 deg now, been for the last few days, so warming a bit hasn't helped either. Guess I just need to plan on this 1318 ending at 1.018 and that's that.

 

[isomerization]

Well, brewed this last Sun, pitched Sun night. On Thurs, when grav was at 1.024, I pitched a healthy 1.5L starter of US-05, which was 24 hrs grown. Should've been rearing and ready to go. Checked grav yesterday and it's seems to be stuck at just 1.020. Really wanted to get this down to 1.014 at least as I can taste the residual sweetness at 1.020. Thought the US-05 would push it down those last few pts, but appears it just couldn't handle that environment and either died off or went right to sleep. It's at 71 deg now, been for the last few days, so warming a bit hasn't helped either. Guess I just need to plan on this 1318 ending at 1.018 and that's that.

Did you mash long and low or not?

 

[gifty74]

148-150 for 60 min. Guess next time I’ll go longer. Going to try some amalyse enzyme to try and get it down a few points.

 

[BostonianBrewer]

I can assure you that yall are overthinking this beer!

 

[flintoid]

care to elaborate?

 

[braindead]

+1

 

[WIexile]

Best color so far for this one. Flavor is also 95% there...

 

[ultravista]

View attachment 619586

Best color so far for this one. Flavor is also 95% there...

Post your recipe ...

 

[DevilsCups]

Post your recipe ...

x2

 

[braindead]

+3

 

[GnenieGone]

View attachment 619586

Best color so far for this one. Flavor is also 95% there...

I'd prefer you just ship me one....

 

[WIexile]

Post your recipe ...

5 Gallon batch BIAB
SG: 1.062 FG: 1.010

9lb 2row
5lb Golden Promise
2lb Carafoam
.5lb Munich
.5lb Honey Malt

Mash temp 152 for 60 mins.

15 Min boil

.5 oz warrior 15 mins

WP @170
2 oz Citra
1 oz Apollo
1 oz Centennial

WP @135
2 oz Citra
1 oz Centennial

Pitch S-04 at 64

DH day 3
2.5 oz Citra
1 oz Centennial
1oz Apollo

Cold crash on day 14
Keg
Keg hop 3oz Citra

20 PSI for 24 hours, then 24 PSI for 24 hours, then down to 15 PSI till ready to serve.

P.S. I have no fermentation control ATM. So fermentation temp went from: 64 to 69 during peak fermentation, and then was allowed to drop back down to 64 for the rest of time till keg.

 

[JohnConnor]

5 Gallon batch BIAB
SG: 1.062 FG: 1.010

9lb 2row
5lb Golden Promise
2lb Carafoam
.5lb Munich
.5lb Honey Malt

Mash temp 152 for 60 mins.

15 Min boil

.5 oz warrior 15 mins

WP @170
2 oz Citra
1 oz Apollo
1 oz Centennial

WP @135
2 oz Citra
1 oz Centennial

Pitch S-04 at 64

DH day 3
2.5 oz Citra
1 oz Centennial
1oz Apollo

Cold crash on day 14
Keg
Keg hop 3oz Citra

20 PSI for 24 hours, then 24 PSI for 24 hours, then down to 15 PSI till ready to serve.

P.S. I have no fermentation control ATM. So fermentation temp went from: 64 to 69 during peak fermentation, and then was allowed to drop back down to 64 for the rest of time till keg.

As a fellow (or former fellow) Wisconsinite, your avatar is HILARIOUS. I have to question the apollo. What do you pick up dry hopping with it? I've always perceived nothing but weed. In a small test, it also had a weird drying sensation.

 

[kaz4121]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

 

[couchsending]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 30 - 50 ppm calcium, 350 - 400 ppm sulfate, 300 - 400 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

That result for Julius is rather odd. If it had that much bicarbonate in it I don’t think it would taste correct.

I wouldn’t shoot for those mineral targets. You’re not factoring in what malt contributes nor how the numbers change throughout the process.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]You’re not factoring in what malt contributes nor how the numbers change throughout the process.

Where would "what malt contributes" go if not in the beer?

Cheers!

 

[bleme]

Where would "what malt contributes" go if not in the beer?

Cheers!

What he is saying is that you might not be able to use those numbers directly for your WATER because the malt might supply some too. Those numbers are for finished beer, which is water+malt+yeast.

 

[couchsending]

Malt contributes a lot to those final beer numbers:

Per 10 Plato (roughly)
50-100 SO4
200 CL
70 MG
20-40 NA
25 Ca

Julius is a 15.5-16 plato beer I believe

 

[duelerx]

Can't link it right now but Mike Tonsmeire published an article of water analysis of Tree House beers on BYO last year, I don't remember the issue, I think he also posted it on his blog.

 

[IBRUTOO]

Anyone test the tap/water fountains at tree house? Interesting to see what they might start with as making that much beer they might filter all water on-site the same way as the brew water.

 

[kaz4121]

Can't link it right now but Mike Tonsmeire published an article of water analysis of Tree House beers on BYO last year, I don't remember the issue, I think he also posted it on his blog.

Unfortunately the BYO link is no longer active that’s why I referenced the pertinent info on my blog

 

[couchsending]

And then there’s the fact that those numbers increase and decrease throughout the process depending on other outside variables.

 

[WIexile]

As a fellow (or former fellow) Wisconsinite, your avatar is HILARIOUS. I have to question the apollo. What do you pick up dry hopping with it? I've always perceived nothing but weed. In a small test, it also had a weird drying sensation.

Apollo is used mostly for an intense orange flavor, that I believe comes from combining it with the Centennial on the DH. I had your experience with Apollo throwing large amounts of dank flavor in my early experiments with using it as a single hop so it needs something to play with. The Citra also defiantly helps to keep the flavor in the citrus realm in general, but you need that extra push of pure orange flavor to get to Julius and not just Citra awesomeness.

 

[cycomiko]

great that BostonianBrewer pops in, drops clangers nad then never backs up his comments.

 

[JohnConnor]

Apollo is used mostly for an intense orange flavor, that I believe comes from combining it with the Centennial on the DH. I had your experience with Apollo throwing large amounts of dank flavor in my early experiments with using it as a single hop so it needs something to play with. The Citra also defiantly helps to keep the flavor in the citrus realm in general, but you need that extra push of pure orange flavor to get to Julius and not just Citra awesomeness.

Thanks! I'll have to give this a try!

 

[h22lude]

Anyone test the tap/water fountains at tree house? Interesting to see what they might start with as making that much beer they might filter all water on-site the same way as the brew water.

They already got into some legal trouble with too much waste. I highly doubt they filter the taps and definitely don't filter the water foundation. Even if they did, all it would tell us is that they filter their water. It wouldn't tell us what minerals they add to each different beer.

 

[kaz4121]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed up the mineral analysis with beverage analytics of Tree House Julius here: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/beverage-analytics-of-tree-house-julius/

Analysis Method Results Units

Color ASBC Beer 10-A 10.8 SRM

pH ASBC Beer 9 4.60 –

Turbidity ASBC Beer 27-B 1821 NTU

Protein Discrete Analyzer 8.1 g/L

ABV ASBC Beer 4 7.10 % v/v

Density ASBC Beer 4 1.01346 g/mL

Specific Gravity ASBC Beer 4 1.01454 –

Apparent Extract ASBC Beer 4 3.72 % w/w

Real Extract ASBC Beer 4 6.18 % w/w

Attenuation ASBC Beer 4 64.7 %

CO2 ASBC Beer 4 4.6 g/L

DO ASBC Beer 4 0.004 mg/L

Bitterness ASBC Beer 23 121 IBU

 

[kaz4121]

Based on the Ward Labs mineral analysis of Julius and Tonsmeire's n=1 experiment, I scaled the finished beer profile to approximate the starting water profile. This assumes A LOT but will hopefully get you in the ballpark. If we knew the grist on the other hand . . .

Calcium (Ca) = 87 ppm
Magnesium (Mg) = 6 ppm
Sodium (Na) = 10 ppm
Sulfate (SO4) = 134 ppm
Chloride (Cl) = 175 ppm

 

[jturman35]

Anyone catch the recipe in this months zymurgy? They have a clone recipe of this and claim the Calcium of 15ppm gives a softer mouthfeel. This is the first I have heard lower Ca provides a softer mouthfeel.

 

[isomerization]

Anyone catch the recipe in this months zymurgy? They have a clone recipe of this and claim the Calcium of 15ppm gives a softer mouthfeel. This is the first I have heard lower Ca provides a softer mouthfeel.

Soft water = soft mouthfeel ?

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Increasing Calcium Sulfate makes a crisper dryer beer with a more assertive bitterness. So decreasing CA makes a softer rounder mouth feel and softer bitterness.

 

[jturman35]

Gotcha! Most water profiles I have used call for at least 75ppm CA and seems like the last one I did had Sulf/Cholride around 125ppm each. I will give this a shot next time still looking to make a smoother beer.

 

[couchsending]

The issue is you lose Ca throughout the whole process so basing starting Ca amounts off a ward labs report of a finished beer can be rather misleading. Also everyone raves about the soft mouthfeel of Hill Farmstead... their beers have a decent amount more Ca in them than Tree House beers.... it’s not just Ca content...

———————————————

CALCIUM LOST IN THE MASH:
NOW IT GETS A LITTLE COMPLICATED. Any calcium added to the mash is reduced by two processes:

a) Removal of bicarbonates resulting in acidification of wort and lowered pH: “Note that it takes a single calcium ion to remove two bicarbonate ions, and remember that you want to have 50-100 ppm calcium remaining in your water for mash activity.”
…[to precipitate bicarbonate with calcium] and its removal will encourage the reaction to continue until either the bicarbonate or the calcium is consumed."Zymurgy article, special GRAIN issue, 1995, p. 35 - by Ginger Wotring – author of the BJCB Water section to prep for the BJCB exam)

So whatever your bicarbonate level is, it begins getting precipitated in the mash by calcium mixing with phosphates from the mash at about 158*F. This doesn't take very long and could be accomplished in 10-15 minutes. So, if you have 100 ppm bicarbonate you will 'consume' 50 ppm calcium while precipitating out the bicarbonate.

In addition, you lose 50-60% of the calcium in the spent grains when you sparge. "Because of the precipitation of CA in these pH control reactions, there is a considerable reduction in the calcium ion concentration during wort production; about 50-60% of the CA ions present during mashing (either present in mashing liquor, or as added salts, or derived from grist materials) will be lost with spent grains and trub." Priest, p. 116

So say you started with 100 ppm calcium in the mash (35 from the malt and 65 by salt additions (calcium sulfate or calcium chloride, e.g.). You then subtract 1/2 of whatever your bicarbonate level is, say 50, leaving you with a residual of 75 ppm calcium. Then you lose say 55% of that in the spent grains. Now you have 34 ppm surviving into the boil kettle.

CALCIUM NEEDS IN THE BOIL KETTLE/FERMENTER
"It has been estimated that a minimum level of 100 mg/l CA ions is required for good quality protein break formation." Priest, p. 113

"Yeast flocculation is improved by calcium; most yeast strains require at least 50 mg/l for good flocculation..." Priest, p. 113.


SO, you need 75-80 in the mash; and a net of 100 in the boil which also addresses the yeast needs in fermentation.

"Another recommendation is that calcium should be in the range of 20-150 ml/l depending on the beer that is being made." Briggs, p. 65

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm about to experiment with boosting Ca++ ions via the use of Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide, also called pickling lime, and slaked lime). This should appreciably boost calcium ions without the introduction of a single sodium, chloride, or sulfate ion, albeit at the cost of introducing appreciable alkalinity. If subsequently neutralized (if/as is needed by the overall grist) with phosphoric acid (only to the extent that is required to hit the desired mash pH target) the added calcium benefit will remain and induced alkalinity will be properly addressed.

 

[tld6008]

I'm about to experiment with boosting Ca++ ions via the use of Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide, also called pickling lime, and slaked lime). This should appreciably boost calcium ions without the introduction of a single sodium, chloride, or sulfate ion, albeit at the cost of introducing appreciable alkalinity. If subsequently neutralized (if/as is needed by the overall grist) with phosphoric acid (only to the extent that is required to hit the desired mash pH target) the added calcium benefit will remain and induced alkalinity will be properly addressed.

Any positive results to report?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Any positive results to report?

Not yet. Hopefully soon though. At this stage in my life (being retired, and having my share of medical issues) I only brew about 3-4 batches of beer per year though, and the word "soon" may not mean to me quite what it means for you.