Totally baffled

[pmoneyismyfriend]

I make this particular beer with 5.5lbs 2 row, 5.5lbs red wheat malt and 1.5lbs of carapils for a 5 gallon batch. I use Brewers Friend software to build my recipes. My calculations call for a 1.053 pre boil gravity. Using the BNB method, I heat 8.5 gallons of strike water, with salts and acid to treat my water, which is diluted with Distilled water. Though I have gone back and forth with no dilution and no additions, to some dilution with additions, to complete dilution with additions and no dilution with acid additions.
The home water supply is very hard
It all ends up the same, I can never hit my pre boil gravity and I calculate at 70% efficiency . I'm always like 20 points short, so I compensate with DME.
I have done this recipe many times and have done it mash and sparge as well, going back and forth from batch sparge to fly sparge. I have brewed a lot, and I get good results, rarely disappointed. But this mash kicks my ass. I would like top be able to not have to depend on DME. I know I could calculate lower and beef up the grains, but why is this so off and consistently? Is it the combination of the grains? It's to the point where I just plan on adding the DME and just consider it part of the recipe. What am I missing?

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

It's just this one particular recipe which you consistently get low efficiency? Every malt has a different extract yield. Online brewing calculators defer to an average extract number for different malts and sometimes they are wrong so it may be suggesting a much higher yield for a particular malt and needs to be adjusted.

 

[bkboiler]

Not being a wheat brewing expert, I know enough to know that it's tricky and I need to research it before giving it a go.
The below has been on my list to read for a while. It may have some insight for you!

Cheers!
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0937381950/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_1opIEbYE39F97

 

[doug293cz]

For 12.5 lbs of grain and 8.5 gal of strike water, I get a pre-boil SG of 1.048. What are you using as the potentials for each of the grains?

With that amount of grain and strike water, your lauter efficiency should be around 80%, and if your conversion efficiency were 100%, your mash efficiency would also be about 80% (mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency.) I suspect that your conversion efficiency is very low, which is almost certainly due to a poor crush. Have you looked at the milled grain to see what fraction of uncrushed kernels you have? Wheat kernels are smaller than barley, so are more likely to not get crushed, if the mill gap is set too wide.

Do you mill your own grain, or do you buy it crushed? If you don't have your own mill, then getting one is likely to bring huge increases to your conversion efficiency, if you crush very fine (which you can do for BIAB.)

You can also directly measure your conversion efficiency using the method here. This can be done in real time during the mash, so that mash time can be extended if your conversion is low at the end of your normal mash time.

Brew on

 

[eric19312]

Wheat malt may need to be crushed a bit more finely than malted barley. It is a little smaller and harder.

 

[grampamark]

I plugged the OP’s numbers into Beersmith and got a preboil gravity of .049. I have a pale wheat recipe that I’ve brewed several times. 8 lbs Pilsner and 4 lbs white wheat. That recipe also predicts .049. Checking my notes I find that the last several times I’ve brewed that recipe I’ve been at .050, give or take a couple of points. I would also suggest that the crush, especially for the wheat, isn’t fine enough.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

It is my understanding BNB allows for a finer crush. The finer crush compensates for having all the grain in a bag. Has this been taken into consideration?

 

[markcurry]

As long as your efficiency is consistent - you're good - don't sweat it - your system's giving you what it's giving you. Just adjust your grains up to account for the lower efficiency, and roll with it. You can increase the whole grain bill, or just the base malt, but either way you should get a fine product. Grain, for a home brewer, is probably the cheapest part about the whole operation. Buy 10-15% more grain to hit your numbers? No brainer. Cheaper than DME too.

Later, you can work on increasing your efficiency, if it's important too you. There's plenty of threads here on how to do that. But getting consistent results is much more important, IMHO.

 

[Dland]

From recipe, looks like there is potential for more optimal conversion. Just a guess though, there are a lot of ways to get inefficiency.

Most important part is if you like to drink what you made. Always room to improve, kind of lakes it fun.

If you are making beer you look forward to drinking, you're doing fine.

 

[doug293cz]

As long as your efficiency is consistent - you're good - don't sweat it - your system's giving you what it's giving you. Just adjust your grains up to account for the lower efficiency, and roll with it. You can increase the whole grain bill, or just the base malt, but either way you should get a fine product. Grain, for a home brewer, is probably the cheapest part about the whole operation. Buy 10-15% more grain to hit your numbers? No brainer. Cheaper than DME too.

Later, you can work on increasing your efficiency, if it's important too you. There's plenty of threads here on how to do that. But getting consistent results is much more important, IMHO.

For some beers this is the case. But here, there is a good chance that if the wheat is mostly un-crusched, that OP is getting much more of the fermentables from the 2 row than from the wheat, when it should be about equal. So, the beer won't have as much wheat character as it should. Adding more grain won't fix this.

Brew on

 

[bracconiere]

I heat 8.5 gallons of strike water

if by BNB method, you mean brew in a bag. wouldn't you need more strike water? do you top up...i would think grain absorbtion for a 5 gallon batch would leave you with less then 5 gallons.....???? just tossing in my own question/idea.....i mash 20lb's in 7 gallons and fly sparge with 10, and only end up with ~14 in the kettle

 

[doug293cz]

if by BNB method, you mean brew in a bag. wouldn't you need more strike water? do you top up...i would think grain absorbtion for a 5 gallon batch would leave you with less then 5 gallons.....???? just tossing in my own question/idea.....i mash 20lb's in 7 gallons and fly sparge with 10, and only end up with ~14 in the kettle

Grain absorption with a mild squeeze (to 0.08 gal/lb rate) would total 1 gal, leaving a 7.5 gal pre-boil volume.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Wheat malt may need to be crushed a bit more finely than malted barley. It is a little smaller and harder.

I would say no "may" about it, it definitely needs a tighter crush. While I run my barley mill at .032, my wheat mill is set to .025...

Cheers!

 

[bracconiere]

Grain absorption with a mild squeeze (to 0.08 gal/lb rate) would total 1 gal, leaving a 7.5 gal pre-boil volume.

Brew on

ahh, thanks for clearing that up....(maybe this should be moved to the BIAB forum, i fly sparge, and am confused by all the pulleys and stuff look like a game of mouse trap...)

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

I double mill always and I order it milled. I guess I never really examined the crushed grains real close. And I always have all the grains in one bag. Next time I brew this I will order the grains separate to see if there is a difference in the crush of the wheat.

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

if by BNB method, you mean brew in a bag. wouldn't you need more strike water? do you top up...i would think grain absorbtion for a 5 gallon batch would leave you with less then 5 gallons.....???? just tossing in my own question/idea.....i mash 20lb's in 7 gallons and fly sparge with 10, and only end up with ~14 in the kettle

I get 7 gallons with those quantities with liquid to spare

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

From recipe, looks like there is potential for more optimal conversion. Just a guess though, there are a lot of ways to get inefficiency.

Most important part is if you like to drink what you made. Always room to improve, kind of lakes it fun.

If you are making beer you look forward to drinking, you're doing fine.

I've never been disappointed in the beer, with the DME added, I hit my gravity, it turns out well

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

It's just this one particular recipe which you consistently get low efficiency? Every malt has a different extract yield. Online brewing calculators defer to an average extract number for different malts and sometimes they are wrong so it may be suggesting a much higher yield for a particular malt and needs to be adjusted.

I have struggled with others as well, but this is a constant battle. My previous brew was Belgian Dark Strong. Due to the large grain bill, I mashed only the Munich and other specialty grains and calculated the Pilsner malt replacement in the form of Extract. I nailed my pre-boil

 

[bracconiere]

I get 7 gallons with those quantities with liquid to spare

spare liquid?

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

I have struggled with others as well, but this is a constant battle. My previous brew was Belgian Dark Strong. Due to the large grain bill, I mashed only the Munich and other specialty grains and calculated the Pilsner malt replacement in the form of Extract. I nailed my pre-boil

I recently upgraded systems from BIAB to a direct heat, multi-vessel system with a recirculation pump. With BIAB I was easily able to do direct heat multi-step mashes and was averaging 85-90% mash efficiency depending on grain bill and up to 94% mash efficiency with high extract German malts. Long story short after "upgrading" to a new system, I'm lucky to get 75% efficiency. I think there are a number of factors which are affecting it including sparge efficiency and not having as much physical agitation of the mash. This may just be the capacity of your system!

 

[doug293cz]

I recently upgraded systems from BIAB to a direct heat, multi-vessel system with a recirculation pump. With BIAB I was easily able to do direct heat multi-step mashes and was averaging 85-90% mash efficiency depending on grain bill and up to 94% mash efficiency with high extract German malts. Long story short after "upgrading" to a new system, I'm lucky to get 75% efficiency. I think there are a number of factors which are affecting it including sparge efficiency and not having as much physical agitation of the mash. This may just be the capacity of your system!

The drop in efficiency is most likely to be (at least partly) due to a drop in conversion efficiency, if you are using a coarser grain crush for the new system. Another possible cause is channeling during fly sparge, if that is what you are doing. You can measure your conversion efficiency using the method here. If it is less than 95%, you should look into reducing your crush size (as much as possible without causing stuck sparge/recirculation), and extending your mash time.

If your conversion efficiency is good, then your lauter efficiency is low. If this is the case, try a batch sparge. If your efficiency goes up, this indicates that your fly sparge process is bad (probably due to channeling.)

Lower physical agitation should not have a major effect on mash efficiency.

Brew on

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

It's low lautering efficiency, I use the same mill gap settings for everything. I have a TINY false bottom, long story short, ordered one on ebay which was advertised as 12" but when it arrived found it was 12cm. Battled w/ ebay seller and lost. So definitely major channeling issues, just working on finding the motivation to fix it lol. Thanks for the input, though!

 

[marc1]

I make this particular beer with 5.5lbs 2 row, 5.5lbs red wheat malt and 1.5lbs of carapils for a 5 gallon batch. I use Brewers Friend software to build my recipes. My calculations call for a 1.053 pre boil gravity. Using the BNB method, I heat 8.5 gallons of strike water, with salts and acid to treat my water, which is diluted with Distilled water. Though I have gone back and forth with no dilution and no additions, to some dilution with additions, to complete dilution with additions and no dilution with acid additions.
The home water supply is very hard
It all ends up the same, I can never hit my pre boil gravity and I calculate at 70% efficiency . I'm always like 20 points short, so I compensate with DME.
I have done this recipe many times and have done it mash and sparge as well, going back and forth from batch sparge to fly sparge. I have brewed a lot, and I get good results, rarely disappointed. But this mash kicks my ass. I would like top be able to not have to depend on DME. I know I could calculate lower and beef up the grains, but why is this so off and consistently? Is it the combination of the grains? It's to the point where I just plan on adding the DME and just consider it part of the recipe. What am I missing?

Wheat malt gave me low efficiencies as well, then I realized it doesn't mill the same as other base malts. Grind it separate and make sure it's really done right. I check each type of grain as it's going through my mill to make sure that it's properly ground. Crystal malts might also require a tighter gap or second run through, so check your carapils, too.