total electric noob, but would this be possible

[gregkeller]

Ok, so here's my situation. I love the idea of a semi-automated electric brewery. Think its an awesome way to go and want to figure out a way to do it. Looks like lots of you guys do this in your basement. Can't do that as my basement is packed full of garbage (alright storage of stuff we need/use, but from a brewing perspective garbage). The good news is outside on a patio i've got 50A service for a hot tub that my wife and I don't use enough, so are going to get rid of. I figure I can use this to power my brewery.

My only issue is I really don't want to spend 30-60 minutes every brew day dragging stuff from my basement, setting it up, breaking it down, running power cables, running control cables and all that stuff in addition to brewing. Is there any way at all that I could build a brew stand, with storage underneath for kettles/pumps/chillers/hoses/etc and somehow have this cart have one or two plugs that i need to connect to it to power and control the entire thing? Reading over the other electric builds it looks like each kettle has a power cord that goes to a control panel, along with each temp probe, and each pump. I guess what i'm trying to do/ask is see if there's a way I can run one 240 line for the elements, one 120 line for the pumps and one cat5 line for a BCS-460 or something to control things? Like I said, total newbie with regards to electric, just kind of thinking on a boring sunday morning. Thanks for any help.

 

[ruger988]

I'm not an electric brewer so take this for what its worth...

I would think that you could (and that most people probably do) have everything wired within their "brewery" and back to their control panel. The control panel then gets it power from a single feed (the 50A service in your case.) So essentially, everything stays wired to the cart/control panel, you then roll it out to the porch, plug in your one big cable to the hot tub receptacle and you're ready to brew.

 

[gregkeller]

Yeah, i kinda figured that, but in my head I want to use a bcs control panel that is remote from where I brew. Not sure that would even work, but that would be ideal, as i'd also like it to run my fermentation fridge that is in my basement, and in a perfect world have it run my keezer at the same time. But for now it would be great to mount the bcs in the basement, and run a single cat 5 cable to my brew cart. I guess i'd also need some kind of control panel that would be on the cart containing all of the relays and stuff, but would love to put that out of the way in a waterproof box so it was pretty well hidden.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Run the bcs in a panel somewhere else and connect it with cat5. You can run signals to the SSRs and from the temp probes through cat5. That was the bcs can be managing fermentation or kegerator duty at the same time. I think it is best to keep all the high voltage stuff close to the brewing operation.

 

[Bartp]

No problem. Your 50a spa panel is most likely gfci protected so it's ideal for brewing. What kind of system do you have and what are your requirements?

Check out theelectricbrewery.com for some inspiration.

 

[gregkeller]

Right now i'm using a hacked together propane system, cooler mash tun, but if possible would love to go nuts with this, 5 & 10 gallon batch capability, recirculating herms, clean in place, all that good stuff. Right now i'm at the early, early, early planing stages, but this was more of a way to see if what i want to do in my head is even possible. Gotta read up on threads and builds and stuff. Lots to learn.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I would strongly recommend starting a good budget as soon as you start to get a good grasp on what you'll need/want. I am so excited to get into e-brewing, but things kept adding on here and there. I thought I was budgeting pretty well, but ended up about $1,000 over...luckily most of my budget came from selling a crate full of old magic cards on ebay and not my bank account.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Upshot - you don't need to run a 120v line if your spa panel has 4 wires to it, which it likely does as most of the pumps / controls for those things tend to be 120 (as far as I know). You could easily build a big extension cord, and have your cart set up ready to go. Roll it out, plug in the 240v extension cord and your Cat5 to the BCS, and you're in business!
-Kevin

 

[trboyden]

Depends on your total amp load. Say you have one element going using 30A, that leaves you 10A (at a safe 80% capacity rating) to run everything else, at the same time. So in that case you couldn't run a second element at the same time as the first one. But you might be able to run a pump, and/or other accessories depending on the final wiring up of your setup.

 

[jeffmeh]

5500w 240v elements draw around 23 amps. Running 2 on a 50a is certainly feasible, and afaik the 80% rule does not apply because it is not a 3 hour continuous load.

 

[trboyden]

5500w 240v elements draw around 23 amps. Running 2 on a 50a is certainly feasible, and afaik the 80% rule does not apply because it is not a 3 hour continuous load.

National Electric Code

BASIC NEC CODE RULES AND DESIGN PRACTICE

Wire Ampacity and Size

1. Maximum loading for any branch circuit is 80% of rating of circuit for
ampacity of wire for any load. NEC 220-2, use NEC 310-16 for ampacity.
This applies to not more than 3 phase conductors in 1 conduit.

Plus, 5500 Watts / 220 Volts = 25 Amps

 

[gregkeller]

First off, thanks everyone for the help. This is getting the wheels turning and making my head spin a little bit. I'm a long way out from making this a reality, but the idea is certainly starting to come around.

Looking at the various ebrewing sites it seems like i've got two options, i can go with either 30a stuff or 50a stuff and be able to fire both elements at the same time. Seems like there is a little bit of a question if 50 amps is enough for that or not, so that's where the next question comes in. After looking in my main panel that's in my basement as well as the spa panel i've found the following:

Main panel: two 60amp breakers tied together (this is a 220/60 amp circuit right? 110/120 on each breaker?). This circuit leaves my main box with 6 gauge wire (not sure if it's 3 or 4 wire), Maybe a 50 foot run of wire to the spa panel.

Spa panel: two 50 amp breakers tied together.

So here's the question, can i change the spa breakers to be 60 amps, get parts to build a 50amp control panel and feel confident in the ability to run both elements at the same time (well within the 80% rule)? Or do my components in the box have to be the same as what the breaker actually is? Like I said, i'm an electric noob, and won't be building this for at least a year, so i've got plenty of time to learn this stuff.

Also now i've got the idea of moving this indoors, would there be any problem adding another spa panel off the line between the main panel and the existing spa panel, knowing that both panels would never be in use at the same time?

 

[augiedoggy]

I say just move the spa panel to the basement.. (after cleaning and reorganizing theres no way you have soo much stuff that you "need and use" that there would be no room after proper organization and this is coming from a packrat myself)
That were the power comes from anyway... just shorten the cable and move the box there. 20 minute job (be sure to turn off the spa breaker in your main panel first) 50A is 20 more than I have and I run three elements (2 4500w and one 1000w) I dont run the two 4500w ones at the same time but theres no need to really unless I was making back to back batches... I also run my 120v power for my pumps and 12/24v power supply from the same circuit. (4500w is plenty for 5/10 gallon batches BTW)

your circuit can handle 60a I ran the same breaker and size line only I used a 60A breaker in my spa panel for my hot tub...
besides as others mentioned the 80% rule isnt for this type of application disregard it. the wire is already underrated to begin with for safety measure.
this is an ongoing argument here that will never be resolved because some interpret it differently than others.... 5500w elements only draw about 23A in most cases (on a 240v circuit) if you put a meter on them to measure draw. remember these are plug in appliances not hard wired devices that are drawing for long periods of time unattended. (these elements do not run at 100% full on for long ).

Besides honestly you could just go with one 4500w (mine draw 17.4 and 18.5 amps respectively) and one 5500w element if thats a real concern...Honestly I heat a full 15 gallons of water in my HLT quickly with no issues.

 

[trboyden]

There's no argument, there is the electrical code which is extremely clear - 80% with no exceptions for the type of load, and there are the people who will do whatever they want safety be damned. Do what you want, but don't provide inaccurate and bad advice to new electric brewers, especially ones who over and over again say they don't know much about electrical wiring.

OP, here is the best advice - when you are ready, call an electrician. At most it will cost $100 plus materials for them to set up your power circuits. Money well spent and then you can concentrate on your control box knowing you won't burn your house down or electrocute yourself or someone else.

 

[grathan]

You can do anything you want with electricity. It's not hard. Wire and breakers can get expensive though. You can certainly tap in and make another inside hookup. Note that gfci breakers are $60-100. If your gfci are at the spa panel then you would have to move them inside to get gfci protection.

Did my first all electric brew tonight. Pretty stoked at not having to worry about propane tank level. 15 amps was almost too much for 8 gallons.

 

[gregkeller]

OP, here is the best advice - when you are ready, call an electrician. At most it will cost $100 plus materials for them to set up your power circuits. Money well spent and then you can concentrate on your control box knowing you won't burn your house down or electrocute yourself or someone else.

This is what i'm planning on doing when it comes down to it, i've got homebrew buddies who are licensed electricians. I'm just trying to figure out options now, more of a mental exercise than anything at this point. I am thinking since the circuit in the main panel is 60 amps i can get a new spa panel installed in the basement with 60 amp breakers in it also. I figure if i do that and build my panel with 50 amp stuff i'd be alright doing back to back batches, firing both elements at the same time.

 

[augiedoggy]

There's no argument, there is the electrical code which is extremely clear - 80% with no exceptions for the type of load, and there are the people who will do whatever they want safety be damned. Do what you want, but don't provide inaccurate and bad advice to new electric brewers, especially ones who over and over again say they don't know much about electrical wiring.

OP, here is the best advice - when you are ready, call an electrician. At most it will cost $100 plus materials for them to set up your power circuits. Money well spent and then you can concentrate on your control box knowing you won't burn your house down or electrocute yourself or someone else.

so why does the breaker say rated for 50 amp on it if its only allowed to be used for a max of 40amps? (The way I understand it and many other will agree is because its rated for a short term (non continuous) load of up to 50amps hence the RATING or 50 amps. we already know that cable itself can handle more current than rated and is already derated.
If I'm wrong please enlighten me to why the The xerox machines I installed and serviced for years required a Nema 20-6 20a dedicated circuit and they had an actual draw of about 17.5 amps while the heaters were on and the motors running??? Doesnt that mean xerox speced the power requirements wrong for all those years? (note the draw was not continuous for long periods of time).
the heating element in a brewing setup does not stay on at 100% once the desired timp is reached... mine with stay on for 20 to 30 mins at most while heating the cold water to temp. two 5500watt elements at 100% at 240v will still draw less than 50a Plus the OP has a circuit that can easily be upgraded to 60a by just swapping the breaker and it will still meet code... If the load was too much for the 50a breaker then it should pop... Thats its one of its purposes...just like a coffee maker and toaster usually would on the same circuit.

Code clearly states that a continuous load is one that lasts more than 3 hours... You claim this is wrong?
6 gauge is rated for 60amps.... at least it meets code here in NY.

 

[trimixdiver1]

The breaker is there to protect the wire, not the load. The derating is already done for you if you follow normal current capacity tables based off the NEC. Make sure though you understand the wire temperatures and the component temperatures as they do differ and can impact the wire you use.