Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[Adaman05]

How does doing what you did above differ from what has been posted and what I attempted below. I'm relatively new to all grain and trying to understand the details of what I could expect the differences to be?

Thanks!



92% CMC 2- Row

4% Gambrinus Honey Malt

4% Flaked barley

I was just sharing what I used. I used this grain bill because that is the bill Citra Hero uses (probably different percentages) which I was trying to approximate. Honestly, I think 95 percent of cloning this beer to your liking is the hop bill and yeast selection.

One thing I've noticed, I've gotten much closer hop bursting in the last 15 minutes of boil and adding a 3 oz whirlpool at FO than I have with relying on all my late kettle hops to be a very large whirlpool.

 

[YeastFeast]

I was just sharing what I used. I used this grain bill because that is the bill Citra Hero uses (probably different percentages) which I was trying to approximate. Honestly, I think 95 percent of cloning this beer to your liking is the hop bill and yeast selection.

One thing I've noticed, I've gotten much closer hop bursting in the last 15 minutes of boil and adding a 3 oz whirlpool at FO than I have with relying on all my late kettle hops to be a very large whirlpool.

Thanks for responding. Interesting thought about it being more about the hop bill and yeast rather than the grain bill. That's really why I asked the question, I thought you figured out that the grain bill that you used to clone Citra Hero was closer to what we want for Pseudo Sue. But perhaps in the end, it's all about the amount of hops, the timing of the hops, and the yeast.

 

[Hannabrew]

Just got done reading this whopper of a thread. Lots of great information in here.

I'm going to take a stab at this on Saturday. Using suggestions from quite a few people most notably Adaman05, Braufessor, and WiscoBrewer. Let me know if you see anything off-base in my recipe (I'm a rookie with BS)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.24 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 6.56 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.38 gal
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile


Date: 23 Jan 2017
Brewer: Sean Hanna
Equipment: **Sean's Equipment (5 Gal Batch) - All Grain**
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Taste Rating: 30.0


6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 48.1 %
6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.4 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3 3.7 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.7 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 25.8 IBUs
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 6 -
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 7 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 35.0 min Hop 8 46.6 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml] Yeast 10 ( I will make a 2L starter with this)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs (in keg)


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %
Bitterness: 72.4 IBUs
Est Color: 5.7 SRM


Mash In Add 18.08 qt of water at 170.0 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 5.64gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).



Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile (which is basically primary for 5-7 days, then dry hop for 5 in primary and rack to dry hopped keg for a few more)


Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI


Cheers!

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Just got done reading this whopper of a thread. Lots of great information in here.

I'm going to take a stab at this on Saturday. Using suggestions from quite a few people most notably Adaman05, Braufessor, and WiscoBrewer. Let me know if you see anything off-base in my recipe (I'm a rookie with BS)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.24 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 6.56 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.38 gal
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile


Date: 23 Jan 2017
Brewer: Sean Hanna
Equipment: **Sean's Equipment (5 Gal Batch) - All Grain**
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Taste Rating: 30.0


6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 48.1 %
6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.4 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3 3.7 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.7 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 25.8 IBUs
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 6 -
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 7 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 35.0 min Hop 8 46.6 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml] Yeast 10 ( I will make a 2L starter with this)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs (in keg)


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %
Bitterness: 72.4 IBUs
Est Color: 5.7 SRM


Mash In Add 18.08 qt of water at 170.0 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 5.64gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).



Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile (which is basically primary for 5-7 days, then dry hop for 5 in primary and rack to dry hopped keg for a few more)


Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI


Cheers!

Looks good, I'd suggestion dropping that first dry hop with a few points to go in the fermenter. Probably going to be around day 3 with wlp007. If you want to limit the amount of transfers you could put the second dry hop right in the primary with no ill effects.

 

[Hannabrew]

Looks good, I'd suggestion dropping that first dry hop with a few points to go in the fermenter. Probably going to be around day 3 with wlp007. If you want to limit the amount of transfers you could put the second dry hop right in the primary with no ill effects.

Yeah I usually do it around day 3 or 4. I'll do the second dry hop in the keg after a closed transfer from the primary.

 

[cheesebach]

Just got done reading this whopper of a thread. Lots of great information in here.

I'm going to take a stab at this on Saturday. Using suggestions from quite a few people most notably Adaman05, Braufessor, and WiscoBrewer. Let me know if you see anything off-base in my recipe (I'm a rookie with BS)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.24 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 6.56 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.38 gal
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile


Date: 23 Jan 2017
Brewer: Sean Hanna
Equipment: **Sean's Equipment (5 Gal Batch) - All Grain**
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Taste Rating: 30.0


6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 48.1 %
6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.4 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3 3.7 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.7 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 25.8 IBUs
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 6 -
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 7 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 35.0 min Hop 8 46.6 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml] Yeast 10 ( I will make a 2L starter with this)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs (in keg)


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %
Bitterness: 72.4 IBUs
Est Color: 5.7 SRM


Mash In Add 18.08 qt of water at 170.0 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 5.64gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).



Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: ** Sean's Fermentation Profile (which is basically primary for 5-7 days, then dry hop for 5 in primary and rack to dry hopped keg for a few more)


Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI


Cheers!

I'd take a closer look at your IBUs - it looks like BS is telling you 46.6 IBUs for your whirlpool addition and 0 IBUs for your 0 min flameout addition. Depending on the temperature you have planned for the steep/whirlpool, you might end up with a lot more bitterness than you're shooting for.
Unless your "Boil 0.0 min" addition is actually coming after the steep/whirlpool and you start chilling immediately after, you'll have to factor in the time it is being steeped and at what temperature. If you tinker around in BS for a bit, you might be able to find a setting that does this for you.

 

[cheesebach]

Here's an explanation from BS about how to set up the software to calculate your boil additions correctly when you have a steep/whirlpool step:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/09/15/whirlpool-and-no-chill-hop-features-in-beersmith-2-3/

I'd recommend reading the page, but here is the critical takeaway from it:

" (under your Equipment profile -> Whirlpool/Steep Utilization there is a new checkbox called “Estimate Boil Hop Util in the Whirlpool“). If you check this box, each boil hop addition will be evaluated based on the remaining hop alpha acids not already isomerized, to estimate the bitterness contribution in the whirlpool."

 

[Braufessor]

You are not going to end up with too much bitterness with .5 ounces of warrior and no other additions until flame out. I think I am reading that right..... all other hops after flame out -correct?

I would stick with exactly what you have. IBU numbers are sketchy to begin with.... Trying to connect a "bitterness" number to flame out and whirlpool hops is really sketchy in my opinion. If the only thing going in the boil is a half ounce of warrior - there is no way this beer is going to be "bitter."

The only thing I would personally consider changing is the honey malt.... I think 8 ounces might be a touch high. That is a strong malt and can throw off a lot of sweetness. It is easier to put more in next time you brew it if you want.... but you aren't taking it out of the batch once it is in there. I would personally lean toward 4 ounces of honey malt. If you want more color without the sweetness the honey malt , you could throw in another 4 ounces of caramel 10-20.

Do you have a plan for the water you are using??

 

[Braufessor]

If you want to limit the amount of transfers you could put the second dry hop right in the primary with no ill effects.

I agree with this as well.

 

[Hannabrew]

You are not going to end up with too much bitterness with .5 ounces of warrior and no other additions until flame out. I think I am reading that right..... all other hops after flame out -correct?

I would stick with exactly what you have. IBU numbers are sketchy to begin with.... Trying to connect a "bitterness" number to flame out and whirlpool hops is really sketchy in my opinion. If the only thing going in the boil is a half ounce of warrior - there is no way this beer is going to be "bitter."

The only thing I would personally consider changing is the honey malt.... I think 8 ounces might be a touch high. That is a strong malt and can throw off a lot of sweetness. It is easier to put more in next time you brew it if you want.... but you aren't taking it out of the batch once it is in there. I would personally lean toward 4 ounces of honey malt. If you want more color without the sweetness the honey malt , you could throw in another 4 ounces of caramel 10-20.

Do you have a plan for the water you are using??

That's pretty much my feeling as well. Since I do a lot of hop additions after flame out I've learned to pretty much ignore BS's IBU calculator.

I'll take your advice on the honey malt...maybe I'll just up the MO to make up the difference.

As for water, I'm on the fence. Up until now I've ignored water and just used tap water (I'm in Chicago). The beers have been tasty but definitely want to try water adjustments but it's a bit daunting.

I might give Bru'n water a shot or I might just go get 10 gallons of RO from the local store and use some predetermined numbers. I could also just use tap water but this time at least use the Campden tablets to get rid of the chlorine.

 

[Hannabrew]

Here's an explanation from BS about how to set up the software to calculate your boil additions correctly when you have a steep/whirlpool step:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/09/15/whirlpool-and-no-chill-hop-features-in-beersmith-2-3/

I'd recommend reading the page, but here is the critical takeaway from it:

" (under your Equipment profile -> Whirlpool/Steep Utilization there is a new checkbox called “Estimate Boil Hop Util in the Whirlpool“). If you check this box, each boil hop addition will be evaluated based on the remaining hop alpha acids not already isomerized, to estimate the bitterness contribution in the whirlpool."

Thanks, I was under the impression that this was more about calculating the IBUs from the hops added earlier in the boil over the time that you're whirlpooling. Am I incorrect?

 

[Braufessor]

As for water, I'm on the fence. Up until now I've ignored water and just used tap water (I'm in Chicago). The beers have been tasty but definitely want to try water adjustments but it's a bit daunting.

I might give Bru'n water a shot or I might just go get 10 gallons of RO from the local store and use some predetermined numbers. I could also just use tap water but this time at least use the Campden tablets to get rid of the chlorine.

If you want the simple version of water, simply do this:

100% RO water
1 level tsp of Gypsum and 1 level tsp of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons of mash and sparge water. (so, 2 tsp of each if you are using 10 gallons)

That will give you a mash pH of 5.4 ish
It will give you Calcium in the 80-100 range and it will give you Chloride and Sulfate in the 120-140 range.

That is the simplest way to get in the ballpark of a typical profile for a beer like this.

 

[Hannabrew]

Of course WLP007 is old out everywhere around here. Should I just use WYeast 1098?

I know there were some other good suggestions in this thread...if there are others that worked better let me know.

 

[cheesebach]

Thanks, I was under the impression that this was more about calculating the IBUs from the hops added earlier in the boil over the time that you're whirlpooling. Am I incorrect?

Yes, that's correct. To clarify, I'm not necessarily suggesting that you change anything about your recipe. But your BS software is not setup to correctly handle the impact of an extended steep/whirlpool step. In equal quantities, any boil addition (even at flameout) must have a higher IBU contribution than the same quantity of hops added at the lower steep/whirlpool temp, unless you remove all of the boil hops at flameout.

What I suggest is to understand how BS is making these calculations and tweak the options/inputs so that it gives you a result that makes sense. This means taking into consideration the temp of the whirlpool step and what type of utilization you'd expect from that temp. I think the link I posted says they use a 50% utilization factor assuming a temp of 90C. If your steep temp is lower, you can change this to a lower number. Then you should see something less than 46 IBUs from the steep addition, but you will also have an impact from the late addition hops to take into account. Once you have it setup and giving estimates that make sense for all of your additions, it will be easier to tweak in the future when you want to adjust the bitterness or keep it the same with hops that have a different AA%.

 

[Hannabrew]

Yes, that's correct. To clarify, I'm not necessarily suggesting that you change anything about your recipe. But your BS software is not setup to correctly handle the impact of an extended steep/whirlpool step. In equal quantities, any boil addition (even at flameout) must have a higher IBU contribution than the same quantity of hops added at the lower steep/whirlpool temp, unless you remove all of the boil hops at flameout.

What I suggest is to understand how BS is making these calculations and tweak the options/inputs so that it gives you a result that makes sense. This means taking into consideration the temp of the whirlpool step and what type of utilization you'd expect from that temp. I think the link I posted says they use a 50% utilization factor assuming a temp of 90C. If your steep temp is lower, you can change this to a lower number. Then you should see something less than 46 IBUs from the steep addition, but you will also have an impact from the late addition hops to take into account. Once you have it setup and giving estimates that make sense for all of your additions, it will be easier to tweak in the future when you want to adjust the bitterness or keep it the same with hops that have a different AA%.

I have my whirlpool time set at 30 minutes and I do it at 170 degrees. What I'm not understanding though is right now I have the "estimate boil hop util" unchecked so it's NOT counting those extra IBUs of having the hops in there for an extended period of time and yet it is still showing my IBUs at 72 which I think is already high.

 

[Braufessor]

Of course WLP007 is old out everywhere around here. Should I just use WYeast 1098?

I know there were some other good suggestions in this thread...if there are others that worked better let me know.

1272 would work very well. 1056 would be fine as well. Don't use 1318.... too much yeast character.

 

[cheesebach]

I have my whirlpool time set at 30 minutes and I do it at 170 degrees. What I'm not understanding though is right now I have the "estimate boil hop util" unchecked so it's NOT counting those extra IBUs of having the hops in there for an extended period of time and yet it is still showing my IBUs at 72 which I think is already high.

At 170F, there's not a lot of isomerization going on, so you're probably well under 72 IBUs. I poked around in my BS program a bit and it seems that BS still doesn't have the functionality to be able to correctly calculate the effect of the boil hop IBU contributions in a whirlpool effectively - that feature assumes that your whirlpool temp is above 85C with no option to change it. So basically, you can just ignore what I said and the calculated IBUs from the late additions in BS and assume that it's probably somewhere in the 10-20 IBU range from both late additions combined.

 

[cheesebach]

You are not going to end up with too much bitterness with .5 ounces of warrior and no other additions until flame out. I think I am reading that right..... all other hops after flame out -correct?

I would stick with exactly what you have. IBU numbers are sketchy to begin with.... Trying to connect a "bitterness" number to flame out and whirlpool hops is really sketchy in my opinion. If the only thing going in the boil is a half ounce of warrior - there is no way this beer is going to be "bitter."

I didn't meant to suggest that he necessarily would end up with an overly bitter beer, just a recommendation to check the math and understand where his IBUs were coming from. If someone went immediately from boiling to whirlpool, letting the wort gradually cool on its own, they'd definitely get a huge IBU contribution from 6 oz of citra added at flameout. This is closer to what the BS software is expecting his whirlpool addition to look like and why it's showing such a high IBU number. I've changed the steep/whirlpool utilization factor in my BS tool options from 50% to 10%, which seems to be giving reasonable estimates for something around 175F where I usually start my whirlpool.

 

[Hannabrew]

1272 would work very well. 1056 would be fine as well. Don't use 1318.... too much yeast character.

Ha...great. I just got back from my LHBS and of course the only thing they had fresh out of the suggestions I found re-reading this thread was 1318.

How much of an effect you think it will have? I could drive slightly further to get 1056 or I could get s-05 from the LHBS.

 

[Braufessor]

Ha...great. I just got back from my LHBS and of course the only thing they had fresh out of the suggestions I found re-reading this thread was 1318.

How much of an effect you think it will have? I could drive slightly further to get 1056 or I could get s-05 from the LHBS.

Tons of people love 1318 for beers like this..... I just don't think you are going to end up with "Sue" ..... still be a good beer, it will just have more character from the yeast.

 

[Hannabrew]

So this is my first time doing a starter...I boiled a tad over 2L of water (with top on) and spilled a bit while pouring into the flask and ended up with a tad over 1600mL after the yeast was added.

The gravity was a tad under 1.040.

According to BS2, it's showing 188B cells yet BS says I need 248B cells.

If I shake it pretty often, can I make this work without having to add another smack pack?

I have a 6 Gallon batch size in the fermenter.

 

[Braufessor]

Should be fine with a 1.060 beer.
How big is your flask? Make sure you have enough head space ..... 1318 will throw up a pretty good size krausen.

In my experience, pitching active yeast is more important than total amount of yeast. I like to make 1L starters 12-18 hours in advance and I pitch the entire thing while it is actively fermenting.

 

[Hannabrew]

it's a 2L flask. I have fermcap on hand and it's in a deep pan just in case.

 

[Braufessor]

it's a 2L flask. I have fermcap on hand and it's in a deep pan just in case.

Keep the fermcap close

 

[cheesebach]

In my experience, pitching active yeast is more important than total amount of yeast. I like to make 1L starters 12-18 hours in advance and I pitch the entire thing while it is actively fermenting.

Just curious, have you experienced some negative effects from pitching a starter that has been crash cooled and decanted vs. pitching during active fermentation? I've always been of the mindset that the less "bad" beer from the starter that made it in, the better, but I've never really tried it the other way.

 

[Hannabrew]

OK so I have been working at this Bru'n Water and think I'm gonna give it a try with this batch.

One question that comes to mind is what water profile to choose for the Sue clone. Braufessor I see you've posted things like

90 % RO water, 10 % tap water.
Calcium 113
Sulfate 225
Chloride 30
Bicarbonate 40
Mash pH 5.3

Are those numbers I can use to plug in a custom water profile even if I'm using all tap water (with campden tablets added) or are those specific to your dilution with RO? My guess is it doesn't matter how you get to those numbers, those are what you want it to add up to right?

If that's the case, when i plug in those numbers for a custom profile, the Cations and Anions sections stay yellow where the rest of the default profiles show green in that column.

Also I have no idea what I'm doing to actually adjust these fields to balance everything out. I've read the instructions 5 times and watched a few tutorials but nobody seems to spend much time on this tab which to me seems to be the most critical one.

P.S if this is taking this too far off topic, I can start a different thread.

 

[Braufessor]

OK so I have been working at this Bru'n Water and think I'm gonna give it a try with this batch.

One question that comes to mind is what water profile to choose for the Sue clone. Braufessor I see you've posted things like

90 % RO water, 10 % tap water.
Calcium 113
Sulfate 225
Chloride 30
Bicarbonate 40
Mash pH 5.3

Are those numbers I can use to plug in a custom water profile even if I'm using all tap water (with campden tablets added) or are those specific to your dilution with RO? My guess is it doesn't matter how you get to those numbers, those are what you want it to add up to right?

If that's the case, when i plug in those numbers for a custom profile, the Cations and Anions sections stay yellow where the rest of the default profiles show green in that column.

Also I have no idea what I'm doing to actually adjust these fields to balance everything out. I've read the instructions 5 times and watched a few tutorials but nobody seems to spend much time on this tab which to me seems to be the most critical one.

P.S if this is taking this too far off topic, I can start a different thread.

I have played around with water a lot and settled in on the following for beers like this:
Calcium: 80-110
Sulfate: 70-140
Chloride: 70-140
Bicarbonate: low as possible (100% RO water)
pH: 5.4

I have been going right around 120:120 on the chloride/sulfate and liking that.

I recommend 100% RO water to start with.
If you add 1 tsp of each CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of RO water (mash water and sparge water) that gets you right in the ballpark of minerals and pH.

 

[Braufessor]

Just curious, have you experienced some negative effects from pitching a starter that has been crash cooled and decanted vs. pitching during active fermentation? I've always been of the mindset that the less "bad" beer from the starter that made it in, the better, but I've never really tried it the other way.

I would never dump 2+ liters of starter wort in a beer. I am always using 1L..... and generally, I am always talking about beers in the 1.040-1.065 range. Most of the time I am also using harvested yeast - so with a bigger beer, I would probably start with more yeast - but still in 1L. Basically, I am just getting the yeast going and pitching as it leaves the exponential growth phase. There is nothing good that happens by letting yeast finish fermenting a starter and crashing them, which can basically make them prepare for going dormant instead of fermenting more. Takes them time to get up to speed again....

Either method is going to be a far cry better than no starter. And, the difference may or may not be significant. But, at the very least - I would always rather make a smaller starter and not have to step it or crash it.

This is a great thread on starters.... there are several on the AHA site with information from S. Cerevisiae.... he provides great insights into yeast - very much worth reading through:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=20692.0

 

[JohnConnor]

I have played around with water a lot and settled in on the following for beers like this:
Calcium: 80-110
Sulfate: 70-140
Chloride: 70-140
Bicarbonate: low as possible (100% RO water)
pH: 5.4

I have been going right around 120:120 on the chloride/sulfate and liking that.

I recommend 100% RO water to start with.
If you add 1 tsp of each CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of RO water (mash water and sparge water) that gets you right in the ballpark of minerals and pH.

You're quoted pH of 5.4. Is that mash temp or room temp?

 

[Braufessor]

You're quoted pH of 5.4. Is that mash temp or room temp?

room temp

 

[JohnConnor]

room temp

Using Bru'n Water, I should target 5.2 (I believe they quote mash pH)?

 

[cheesebach]

Target 5.4 - near the bottom of the "Grain Bill Input" tab, it states the pH estimate is the "Estimated Room-Temperature Mash pH"

 

[Braufessor]

Using Bru'n Water, I should target 5.2 (I believe they quote mash pH)?

Mash pH almost always is referred to in terms of "room temperature mash pH"...... take sample out, cool it to room temp, measure.

 

[Hannabrew]

I'm not sure I can get RO water though...I actually own an RO converter that we bought for a salt water aquarium years ago (long since gone thank god) however it's up in northern Michigan at my in-laws place at the moment.

Are most of those store water dispensers RO water?

For what it's worth, I think I may have gotten this to balance with my water profile...any reason why this wouldn't work?

 

[Hannabrew]

I have played around with water a lot and settled in on the following for beers like this:
Calcium: 80-110
Sulfate: 70-140
Chloride: 70-140
Bicarbonate: low as possible (100% RO water)
pH: 5.4

I have been going right around 120:120 on the chloride/sulfate and liking that.

I recommend 100% RO water to start with.
If you add 1 tsp of each CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of RO water (mash water and sparge water) that gets you right in the ballpark of minerals and pH.

I managed to find some RO water so I'm gonna go with your advice.

When I put in 100% dilution in Bru'n Water and add 1g of gypsum and CaCL per gallon (1 tsp/5 gallon) it's showing me an estimated mash ph of 5.3 and my Calcium, Sodium, and Sulfate numbers are 158, 148, and 173 respectively.

Am I missing something?

 

[Braufessor]

I managed to find some RO water so I'm gonna go with your advice.

When I put in 100% dilution in Bru'n Water and add 1g of gypsum and CaCL per gallon (1 tsp/5 gallon) it's showing me an estimated mash ph of 5.3 and my Calcium, Sodium, and Sulfate numbers are 158, 148, and 173 respectively.

Am I missing something?

1g/gallon is not the same as 1tsp/5 gallon (At least not with level tsp's when I measure it).

A tsp of CaCl ends up being about 4.2 grams in 5 gallons
A tsp of Gypsum ends up being about 3.8 grams in 5 gallons.

So, I would say that the 1g/gallon is just a bit on the high side....

.8 g/gallon of CaCl
.75 g/gallon of gypsum
That would likely put you in the ballpark??

 

[Hannabrew]

1g/gallon is not the same as 1tsp/5 gallon (At least not with level tsp's when I measure it).

A tsp of CaCl ends up being about 4.2 grams in 5 gallons
A tsp of Gypsum ends up being about 3.8 grams in 5 gallons.

So, I would say that the 1g/gallon is just a bit on the high side....

.8 g/gallon of CaCl
.75 g/gallon of gypsum
That would likely put you in the ballpark??

Ah, that's better. I didn't think about the fact that they're different weights

That puts me at mash ph of 5.39, CA 122, Sodium 8, Sulfate 119, Chloride 131, biocarb 16. That sound about right?

 

[Braufessor]

Ah, that's better. I didn't think about the fact that they're different weights

That puts me at mash ph of 5.39, CA 122, Sodium 8, Sulfate 119, Chloride 131, biocarb 16. That sound about right?

Yep - that should put you right in the area you want to be in.

 

[Hannabrew]

Awesome thanks for your help!

 

[YeastFeast]

@Hannabrew So, did you end up brewing this and how did it turn out? I'm going to have my second go at this hopefully in a week or two.