Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[Braufessor]

I move that we rename the beer in this thread...... I am thinking we should call it "Trade Secrets."

Honestly, there are really few things that I have less time for in the brewing community than this nonsense of "proprietary ingredients" or "trade secrets" - give me a break. There just is not really anything super special about any beer..... least of all a recipe, and, especially a NE IPA. An all-Citra IPA is honestly about as cliche as you can get at this point in the beer world.

Plus, EVERY brewer that produces good beer does so ONLY because other brewers shared THEIR "secrets" and knowledge with them. That is how everyone improves. Really disheartening to see that sort of stuff in the beer world in my opinion. I brewed mediocre beer for 10-15 years. The only reason I learned to brew consistently good beer is because dozens (hundreds) of generous brewers shared bits and pieces of what they knew. As a result, I would gladly share 100% of any recipe or process with anyone who asked or needed help. I think that is the common stance of most in the brewing world. It should be - because that is how most good brewers got to where they are too.

By the way, I have some good recipes for big, thick russian imperial stouts too

In case anyone is out of the loop: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/...-brewing-employee-cedar-rapids-rival-20180731

 

[WiscoBrewer]

What’s funny is the current brewmaster supposedly left for a short period because the owner was publicly claiming the beers as his own creations...and the contract brewing fiasco

On another note, if you look at the beers at Thew, none of them seem to be what TG is brewing. He isn’t brewing a PS he’s trying to make a living and TG is trying to stop that.

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2018/7/31/how-to-screw-your-brewer

 

[Braufessor]

What’s funny is the current brewmaster supposedly left for a short period because the owner was claiming the beers as his own creations.

On another note, if you look at the beers at Thew, none of them seem to be what TG is brewing.

He did leave for a while and there were some other rocky times as well.

I have heard the same about Thew - seems their beers are not really TG knockoffs or anything. Even if they were...... what breweries aren't making Hazy NEIPA's? This stuff is not a "secret." We, as home brewers, prove that all the time on these forums by helping each other brew similar, and even better beers than we can buy.

 

[couchsending]

Pretty sure this is pretty common in craft beer, you just don’t hear about it cause people aren’t dumb enough to break a non compete they sign.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

I move that we rename the beer in this thread...... I am thinking we should call it "Trade Secrets."

Honestly, there are really few things that I have less time for in the brewing community than this nonsense of "proprietary ingredients" or "trade secrets" - give me a break. There just is not really anything super special about any beer..... least of all a recipe, and, especially a NE IPA. An all-Citra IPA is honestly about as cliche as you can get at this point in the beer world.

Plus, EVERY brewer that produces good beer does so ONLY because other brewers shared THEIR "secrets" and knowledge with them. That is how everyone improves. Really disheartening to see that sort of stuff in the beer world in my opinion. I brewed mediocre beer for 10-15 years. The only reason I learned to brew consistently good beer is because dozens (hundreds) of generous brewers shared bits and pieces of what they knew. As a result, I would gladly share 100% of any recipe or process with anyone who asked or needed help. I think that is the common stance of most in the brewing world. It should be - because that is how most good brewers got to where they are too.

By the way, I have some good recipes for big, thick russian imperial stouts too

In case anyone is out of the loop: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/...-brewing-employee-cedar-rapids-rival-20180731

I'm up for a good thick black Russian stout recipe Brau!! PM me if you get a free chance.

thanks

 

[WiscoBrewer]

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ut-over-toppling-goliaths-non-compete-lawsuit

Clark is completely within his rights to have a non compete clause, but not letting the employee take it to a lawyer or even out of the brewery before signing it brings into question his motives, what lies within the pages, or its legality. I think it’s a dick move, especially since Shenk is not brewing anything like TG beers...proprietory recipes, methods, etc please get off your high horse, this will hurt TG in public opinion more than a small brewery hiring an ex brewer.

 

[TxBigHops]

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ut-over-toppling-goliaths-non-compete-lawsuit

Clark is completely within his rights to have a non compete clause, but not letting the employee take it to a lawyer or even out of the brewery before signing it brings into question his motives, what lies within the pages, or its legality. I think it’s a dick move, especially since Shenk is not brewing anything like TG beers...proprietory recipes, methods, etc please get off your high horse, this will hurt TG in public opinion more than a small brewery hiring an ex brewer.

Agreed that this could hurt TG. This is not the attitude that the industry normally represents.

 

[WIexile]

Most current batch, tasting really good. Shot from opposite angles.

 

[bremski]

View attachment 578672View attachment 578673View attachment 578674View attachment 578675

The one on the metal surface is the homebrew next to a DDH sue bottle.. just to compare to actual DDH Sue next to a bottle in the other pic.

The other two are the colors in different lighting. Turned out great!

Looks great! What was your final recipe if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Tarpon87]

Whats peoples opinions on the current citra crop? Ive heard a lot of not so good reviews. I just used up the last of my 2017 citra and looking at buying a few pounds of 2018

 

[WIexile]

Whats peoples opinions on the current citra crop? Ive heard a lot of not so good reviews. I just used up the last of my 2017 citra and looking at buying a few pounds of 2018

From what I've seen it's hit and miss so far. Just brewed up a double batch of my Sue clone, one with 2018 Citra and one with 2016 crop.

2016 is better...

 

[couchsending]

Citra is now the number one grown hop as far as acreage goes in the Northwest. It’s now grown in 3 states as well. No offense but home brewers saying this year’s crop is hit or miss or is not as good as other years is just a bit odd. Hops vary so drastically from place to place, processsing facility, how they were store before you got them etc. there’s no way unless you could literally compare hops from the exact same farm and time of harvest as the previous year.

We have no idea what hops were getting and are honestly at the bottom of the pile.

I’d say try different suppliers if you’re unhappy with a a certain bag.

I’ve been very happy with the Citra I’ve got from Hops Direct the last few years, this year is no exception.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

home brewers saying this year’s crop is hit or miss or is not as good as other years is just a bit odd.

Vintage variation is just as much a thing in hops as it is in eg wine grapes. I assume it's not as obvious in somewhere like the PNW as it is in eg the UK, but if you did the impossible experiment of simultaneously giving me green hop beers made from EKG of the last few years, I reckon I could identify the vintage 80-90% of the time, they are that different. It was always a routine for commercial brewers in previous generations to taste the new season's crop of both hops and barley, and adjust the recipe to compensate for those variations.

Weather may play less of a part in the PNW, but Citra has the obvious problem that the huge expansion of acreage has led to less experienced farmers growing it, and it does seem quite sensitive to harvest time etc which novice growers may not have so nailed down. That was also a problem around 2012-ish. But generally, I heard a lot of complaints from commercial brewers about the 2017 crop of Citra, I've not been aware of the same problems in the 2018 vintage.

But it can be hard for homebrewers to distinguish that kind of thing from just getting a bad batch - hence this thread.

 

[paarman]

Looks great! What was your final recipe if you don’t mind me asking?

I followed these posts and made tiny alterations, I'd have to look back in my notes if you're looking for any specific changes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-11#post-7854328

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-12#post-8272216

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I followed these posts and made tiny alterations, I'd have to look back in my notes if you're looking for any specific changes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-11#post-7854328

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-12#post-8272216

Just curious, but what yeast did you end up going with? My cord for my 20L Braumeister comes on Wednesday so I'd like this to be my inaugural batch for doing my small test batches(2.5G-5G) in the BM. Then if I like them, I can throw them on the 30 gallon.

I usually use 1318 for my NEIPAs, but I'd really like to know what yeast they are using for Pseudo Sue, or the closest thing to it.

Edit: must have somehow skipped the whole first half of page 13 somehow. So maybe I'll break it down into two 2.5 gallon batches and use S-04 for one and 007 for the other. Then see if my brew club can distinguish any difference. I don't see you guys mentioning what fermentation temps though for the 007 and S-04 for this specific beer?

 

[couchsending]

Just curious, but what yeast did you end up going with? My cord for my 20L Braumeister comes on Wednesday so I'd like this to be my inaugural batch for doing my small test batches(2.5G-5G) in the BM. Then if I like them, I can throw them on the 30 gallon.

I usually use 1318 for my NEIPAs, but I'd really like to know what yeast they are using for Pseudo Sue, or the closest thing to it.

Edit: must have somehow skipped the whole first half of page 13 somehow. So maybe I'll break it down into two 2.5 gallon batches and use S-04 for one and 007 for the other. Then see if my brew club can distinguish any difference. I don't see you guys mentioning what fermentation temps though for the 007 and S-04 for this specific beer?

Those yeasts are best kept at 64ish for the first 48-72 hours then slowly raised to 68/69 for the end of fermentation.

 

[paarman]

I went with WLP007 for yeast. I went back and fourth, but after much reading this is the "original"yeast used with it, and that's what I wanted to hit close to-it delivered. I use 1318 for my NEIPAs too, and I have never been disappointed with it. I just strictly went for the closest clone I could get. I wouldn't be opposed to trying 1318 in this now.

And couchsending is correct. I fermented between 65-67, just because I didn't have an area to get any cooler than that. After about a week or so, I moved the fermenter up to around 70* and let it finish out. I'm a firm believer in climbing fermentation temps-love the fruity flavors it brings out.

 

[jturman35]

I have never had this beer but it looks great! I never had Sip of Sunshine I till after I brewed it, recipe was spot on. This is why I got into home brewing to make beer that I either couldn’t get, or too expensive. I plan on brewing this next!

 

[WIexile]

Glad to see a little more life in this forum again.

Latest version of DDH Sue clone.

 

[WIexile]

I have never had this beer but it looks great! I never had Sip of Sunshine I till after I brewed it, recipe was spot on. This is why I got into home brewing to make beer that I either couldn’t get, or too expensive. I plan on brewing this next!

Great choice! One of my favorite beers to brew and my favorite house beer. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[jturman35]

I assume this beer goes down hill fast? What’s it like after a month in the keg? I have 5 kegs on tap so planing my rotation.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I went with WLP007 for yeast. I went back and fourth, but after much reading this is the "original"yeast used with it, and that's what I wanted to hit close to-it delivered. I use 1318 for my NEIPAs too, and I have never been disappointed with it. I just strictly went for the closest clone I could get. I wouldn't be opposed to trying 1318 in this now.

And couchsending is correct. I fermented between 65-67, just because I didn't have an area to get any cooler than that. After about a week or so, I moved the fermenter up to around 70* and let it finish out. I'm a firm believer in climbing fermentation temps-love the fruity flavors it brings out.

So I went and picked up a pack of S04 today as well as a few packs of 007, some honey malt, and some Maris Otter. Already have some Rahr 2 row. So Im going to brew a 6 gallon batch of this on Monday, split it into two 3 gallon fermenters, and pitch each of those yeasts to see if there is any discernable difference that can be tasted.

Looking at your photos, yours looks dead on color wise to the real deal versus some of the other attempts in this thread. I know lighting plays a big part. You also said you couldn't tell the difference in taste.

I'd also like to get as close as I can to the real thing, as right now it's probably my favorite hazy on the market. So well rounded, sweet but dry, no grassy flavors from the hops, no dankness, etc.

If you wouldn't mind posting it, I'd like to brew to your specs/actual recipe, and water profile(in ppm).

 

[paarman]

So I went and picked up a pack of S04 today as well as a few packs of 007, some honey malt, and some Maris Otter. Already have some Rahr 2 row. So Im going to brew a 6 gallon batch of this on Monday, split it into two 3 gallon fermenters, and pitch each of those yeasts to see if there is any discernable difference that can be tasted.

Looking at your photos, yours looks dead on color wise to the real deal versus some of the other attempts in this thread. I know lighting plays a big part. You also said you couldn't tell the difference in taste.

I'd also like to get as close as I can to the real thing, as right now it's probably my favorite hazy on the market. So well rounded, sweet but dry, no grassy flavors from the hops, no dankness, etc.

If you wouldn't mind posting it, I'd like to brew to your specs/actual recipe, and water profile(in ppm).

Sure, I will look back in my notes and post it up. Also curious to hear how your split batch goes-wouldn't mind using S04 if the flavors aren't thrown off.

 

[paarman]

If you have any questions on anything in particular, you can shoot me a PM. Hope this helps!

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.75 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.50 gal

Date: 9 Jun 2018
Brewer: Justin Paar
Equipment: Bayou 16 Gal Kettle + 10 Gal Cooler
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %

Mash @ 152* for 60 mins

Water Profile
Calcium: 148ppm
Sulfate: 150ppm
Chloride: 150ppm
Mash pH: 5.25

5 lbs 9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
6 lbs Golden Promise (2.5 SRM)
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.4 SRM)
8.0 oz Flaked Wheat
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - 0 min
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Boil 35.0 min (Around 160-180*)
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) (Made a 1L starter stepped up to 1.5L starter with this)
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 2-3
3.70 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 10 (I transferred to keg by day 10)
I did the second dry hop inside of a mesh floating cylinder inside of the keg, where I let it stay until the keg was done, which was within a month.

I cold crashed the keg for 24 hours, then set to 30psi for 24 hours, purge it and set it to serving pressure and let it sit for a few days.

Ferment ~64* for 7-14 days. (Mine was at 65*, moved to 72* on day 3 with first DH, and into a keg on day 10 as it was done)

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Finally got around to brewing this today. Used it to break in my new Braumeister 20L. It was hard calculating mash and sparge water minerals with this, but I tried doing it using estimated mash and sparge volumes, then added it all to the mash. For that reason my water profile may be a little low because I ended up having to add more RO water than I planned, and still ended up .75 gallons short post boil, with a 1.063 SG.

Here is a sample post boil before the 3oz of whirlpool hops. I really like where the color ended up. Didn't have GP so substituted MO instead. May just end up doing a 3oz dry hop per 2.5 gallon fermenter on day 3 since the regular Psuedo is a single dry hop.

Also forgot to make a 1l starter of the 007 so both fermenters got thrown into the fermenter at 64°. I'll pitch both yeasts tomorrow since I want to have the same pitch rate for both to keep this test on equal playing fields.

 

[paarman]

Looks awesome. Excited to hear your results.

 

[jturman35]

I plan on brewing this next weekend. How are you guys dry hopping on day 2-3? Are you removing the first round of hops after a week? I know this style is sensitive to oxidation so im looking to take extra caution when dry hopping and racking. I guess adding the first round of hops at krausen helps scrub off any oxygen? I have a conical so i am able to add co2 after opening the lid. I'm just being paranoid.

 

[WIexile]

I plan on brewing this next weekend. How are you guys dry hopping on day 2-3? Are you removing the first round of hops after a week? I know this style is sensitive to oxidation so im looking to take extra caution when dry hopping and racking. I guess adding the first round of hops at krausen helps scrub off any oxygen? I have a conical so i am able to add co2 after opening the lid. I'm just being paranoid.

Yep, I drop in that first DH around day 3 on tail end of fermentation and leave them in there for the rest of the time loose. I also keg hop on this one, when I am doing a DDH version.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I plan on brewing this next weekend. How are you guys dry hopping on day 2-3? Are you removing the first round of hops after a week? I know this style is sensitive to oxidation so im looking to take extra caution when dry hopping and racking. I guess adding the first round of hops at krausen helps scrub off any oxygen? I have a conical so i am able to add co2 after opening the lid. I'm just being paranoid.

I threw mine in on day 3. I didn't DDH this batch but am highly considering it. I'm not a huge fan of it, but there were so many variables(new brew system, new fermenters/chamber, pressure fermenting, etc). So there could have been something wrong in any of those. It's very bland to me and overly sweet. I'm wondering if it has to do with the Maris otter and honey malt.

I have two samples (one of each yeast I used) degassing so I can see what the final gravity was since I forgot to check. Hopefully they finished out.

 

[WIexile]

I threw mine in on day 3. I didn't DDH this batch but am highly considering it. I'm not a huge fan of it, but there were so many variables(new brew system, new fermenters/chamber, pressure fermenting, etc). So there could have been something wrong in any of those. It's very bland to me and overly sweet. I'm wondering if it has to do with the Maris otter and honey malt.

I have two samples (one of each yeast I used) degassing so I can see what the final gravity was since I forgot to check. Hopefully they finished out.

I think you may have a fermentation issue. Curious to find what your FG is?

 

[jturman35]

I have never had this beer so I have no idea what to expect! I can’t get it here in MS. I also can’t get Lawson’s Sip of Sunshine, but damn was I glad when I brewed it!

Here is what I plan on brewing this weekend! I will post my results and pics to follow.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I think you may have a fermentation issue. Curious to find what your FG is?

Ended up exactly the same on both...1.009. So fermentation was definitely done. Only other thing I can attribute it to was grain bill or water lacking minerals. I'm actually surprised it finished so low with the temp I mashed at.

 

[WIexile]

Ended up exactly the same on both...1.009. So fermentation was definitely done. Only other thing I can attribute it to was grain bill or water lacking minerals. I'm actually surprised it finished so low with the temp I mashed at.

What is your grain bill looking like?

 

[jturman35]

What is the most you guys have dry hopped this beer? I’m seriously considering 4oz (day 2) and 4oz at (day 7) or so.

 

[couchsending]

Their beers don’t taste/smell like they are dry hopped during fermentation. If they do it’s at the very very end. Wouldn’t surprise me if Sue is 3lbs per bbl of DH. Personally I’d wait until fermentation is done. If you Must add 2oz at very end of fermentation (.5 plato to FG) and then 6 oz after d-rest and you’ve cooled to 60 or so.

 

[paarman]

What is the most you guys have dry hopped this beer? I’m seriously considering 4oz (day 2) and 4oz at (day 7) or so.

That's basically what I did. Just shy of 4oz the 2nd time inside of the keg. I thought it was fantastic.

 

[jturman35]

Anyone see any issue with my dry hop schedule below? I have a tilt floating in my conical. I’m currently at 27hrs and beer is at 1.044. I plan on dry hopping first round of hops at day 2. I’m going to use a keg spider and hop in the conical, after 5 days assuming the beer is done I plan to rack into a keg with 3oz more dry hops for 5 more days. After 5 days I plan on racking into the final serving keg. This seems to limit the least amount of oxygen. I don’t brew many NEIPA’s so trying to prefect my process.

Any thoughts?

 

[WIexile]

Anyone see any issue with my dry hop schedule below? I have a tilt floating in my conical. I’m currently at 27hrs and beer is at 1.044. I plan on dry hopping first round of hops at day 2. I’m going to use a keg spider and hop in the conical, after 5 days assuming the beer is done I plan to rack into a keg with 3oz more dry hops for 5 more days. After 5 days I plan on racking into the final serving keg. This seems to limit the least amount of oxygen. I don’t brew many NEIPA’s so trying to prefect my process.

Any thoughts?

No need to rack two times. Let the beer sit for 10 days in your fermenter on the hops. Rack into your serving keg after this with final hops in there. You don't wanna move this beer around to much. Otherwise your hop amounts look great! Let us know how it goes.

 

[paarman]

Agree with the above. You'll find a ton a varying opinions, but I've always found success in the least transfers/oxygen exposure the better.

I open my fermenter to dry hop once, and again when I am hooking up a racking cane apparatus to closed-transfer to the keg which is already purged with C02 and dry hop inside. I don't open up that keg again until it's empty. Between those two situations, it probably catches a little oxygen but the color/taste was not affected from what I could tell. I didn't pull the keg hop out specifically because I didn't want to depressurize or have it hit oxygen.

I've had friends that will do a low C02 stream when opening the keg to create a "cloud" and prevent oxygen from hitting the beer when removing the dry hop from inside the keg which seems logical, but another reason I didn't do that is that I couldn't get my keg sealed airtight with a suspended dry hop, there always seemed to be a tiny leak so I just dropped the whole hop cylinder in there and let it free float/sink. Didn't have any clogging issues or anything this way, for what it's worth. And I got no grassy off-flavors from it sitting in there a month or so, which is a common complaint of doing this-maybe it depends on the hop variety but Citra was fine. Just my .02.

 

[jturman35]

Double post