Too much yeast after first fermentation [SOLVED]

[clementverdier]

[EDIT] I assume this is the wrong topic? Should I post it in fermentation and yeast instead?


Hi guys!
I'm having quite a hard time figuring out what's wrong with my beer...
I'm making a cinnamon imperial stout (technical info at the end of post). I've tried it twice, and both times, my fermentation ended up in having my fermentation tank half-way filled with yeasts (see pic).
The first one I did, I added (way too much) sugar, to increase alcohol content (because I was young and stupid?), so I assumed the problem came from this. The second time though, I simply followed the recipe, but the same thing happened.
If anybody has any clue about what the heck is happening here, that would be greatly appreciated !! Thanks in advance guys!

Technical info:

Cinnamon imperial stout:
Batch size: 5L
Malt:
- 1.7 kg (3.7lb) Lager (38ppg)
- 0.45 kg (1lb) Caracrystal (34ppg)
- 0.5 kg flaked (1lb) oats (33ppg)
- 0.1 kg (0.2lb) roasted barley (29ppg)

Hops:
- bitter: 12 g (0.4oz) CTZ, 5g (0.17oz) Magnum
- flavours: 4g (0.15oz) Goldings, 5g (0.17oz) Magnum, 5g (0.17oz) Columbus

Yeasts:
- Safeale US-05: 1 pack = 11.5g (0.4oz)

Others:
- 8 sticks cinnamon for 30 mins with hops
- 5g (0.17oz) coffee for 5 mins

Fermentation Temp: ~17-22 °C

Measured OG (in brix and converted to gravity): 27.2° --> 1.111

 

[Nagorg]

If I read your batch size correctly, 5L is ~1.32 gallons. Assuming your 1 pack of US-05 is the typical 11 grams, I'd say that you used too much yeast. That 11 gram pack would be appropriate for an ~18.93L batch.

 

[Nagorg]

WOW... I just noticed the OG on that thing... Are you certain its 1.111 SG? Thats really high...

 

[clementverdier]

If I read your batch size correctly, 5L is ~1.32 gallons. Assuming your 1 pack of US-05 is the typical 11 grams, I'd say that you used too much yeast. That 11 gram pack would be appropriate for an ~18.93L batch.

Yep, that was a 11.5g pack.

I thought about this, but I also read everywhere that over-pitching yeast was almost impossible... Next time I brew, I'll try with 4 times less yeast then :/

 

[Stand]

He might need that much yeast for a beer with an OG that high.

Is the yeast coming out the top, or do you mean the stratification in the beer?

The picture you showed is murky because it needs time for the yeast to fall out of solution.

If you can put it in a refrigerator it will happen faster.

 

[clementverdier]

WOW... I just noticed the OG on that thing... Are you certain its 1.111 SG? Thats really high...

HAHA yeah I know ^^'

Soooo, in theory, the calculated OG (from the recipe alone) should be 1.141, but I got to 1.111 (81%, which seems fair).
However, I don't have a hydrometer, but a refractometer (less fragile and less destructive I think) and the brix reading was 27.2° (which I converted myself to OG, using several formulae found, for example on brewers's Friend).

 

[Nagorg]

Even Mr. Malty say's you only need half that much yeast. And many think that Mr. Malty tends to have you use more than needed.

 

[clementverdier]

Is the yeast coming out the top, or do you mean the stratification in the beer?

The picture you showed is murky because it needs time for the yeast to fall out of solution.

If you can put it in a refrigerator it will happen faster.

I mean the thick layer of yeast at the bottom.

Yep, I tried to put it in a fridge for 2 days for the first batch, as I knew it would help, but it only lowered the layer by 2 cm... (still better than without the fridge tho)

 

[Stand]

US-05 takes awhile to drop. How long has it been since you brewed? How long since fermentation finished?

 

[Nagorg]

27.2 must be 27.2 degrees plato which is somewhere around 1.116 SG. Still a lot of yeast!

 

[clementverdier]

US-05 takes awhile to drop. How long has it been since you brewed? How long since fermentation finished?

I can only speak for the first batch, as the second one is still fermenting (but it seems to be taking the same path).

Fermentation lasted 5 days (no bubbling in the bubbler) but I left it for 2 full weeks in total at ~17-22°C. Then 2 days in a fridge a 4°C before putting in a bottle

27.2 must be 27.2 degrees plato which is somewhere around 1.116 SG. Still a lot of yeast!

Yeah, it was °Brix, but it's the same, to the 4th decimal as °Plato in any case.

 

[Nagorg]

Try using half the pack next time.

 

[Yooper]

That's not all yeast! It's also the other stuff- cinnamon and coffee.
I'm terrible at metric- but it looks like you have nearly as much crystal malt and adjuncts as extract. If you're going to stick with this recipe (it's not a very good one), then get a bigger fermenter and continue to use the same amount of yeast. Then rack (siphon) off all of the sediment when it's done.

 

[clementverdier]

That's not all yeast! It's also the other stuff- cinnamon and coffee.
I'm terrible at metric- but it looks like you have nearly as much crystal malt and adjuncts as extract. If you're going to stick with this recipe (it's not a very good one), then get a bigger fermenter and continue to use the same amount of yeast. Then rack (siphon) off all of the sediment when it's done.

It's only 5g of ground coffee, the cinnamon was removed prior to fermentation (it was in my BIAB bag)
And I have ~1lb of crystal, which is nowhere near my 0.8 oz of coffee + 06 oz of cinnamon (which was removed)

Also, I've now converted my recipe to imperial units =D

 

[Yooper]

It's only 5g of ground coffee, the cinnamon was removed prior to fermentation (it was in my BIAB bag)
And I have ~1lb of crystal, which is nowhere near my 0.8 oz of coffee + 06 oz of cinnamon (which was removed)

Ok! I'm sorry- I though the recipe was this:
1.7 kg Lager (38ppg)
- 0.45 kg Caracrystal (34ppg)
- 0.5 kg flaked oats (33ppg)
- 0.1 kg roasted barley (29ppg)

Crystal, oats and roasted barley are not basemalts. Those are specialty grains and adjuncts.

Thought you boiled the cinnamon (which dissolves much of the sticks into the spice)

Sorry for the mistake- since you know what you're doing and apparently I don't, I'll bow out!

PS- that is NOT all yeast there.

 

[Nagorg]

That's not all yeast! It's also the other stuff- cinnamon and coffee.
I'm terrible at metric- but it looks like you have nearly as much crystal malt and adjuncts as extract. If you're going to stick with this recipe (it's not a very good one), then get a bigger fermenter and continue to use the same amount of yeast. Then rack (siphon) off all of the sediment when it's done.

^^

- 3.75 lbs "Lager"
- .99 lbs "Caracrystal"
- 1.10 lbs flaked oats
- 3.53 oz roasted barley

Yeah, that recipe doesn't look right either. Regardless, for that batch size and gravity you are still using twice as much yeast as needed.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If anybody has any clue about what the heck is happening here, that would be greatly appreciated

Did you filter the wort when it was added to the fermentor or did you pour it in? Both are valid techniques. Each will yield a different result.

 

[Yooper]

It's only 5g of ground coffee, the cinnamon was removed prior to fermentation (it was in my BIAB bag)
And I have ~1lb of crystal, which is nowhere near my 0.8 oz of coffee + 06 oz of cinnamon (which was removed)

Also, I've now converted my recipe to imperial units =D

One last thing- if the cinnamon was in the BIAB bag, how did you boil it without boiling any of the grains? That sounds like it may have been difficult.

 

[clementverdier]

Crystal, oats and roasted barley are not basemalts. Those are specialty grains and adjuncts.

Thought you boiled the cinnamon (which dissolves much of the sticks into the spice)

Sorry for the mistake- since you know what you're doing and apparently I don't, I'll bow out!

PS- that is NOT all yeast there.

Sorry I appeared rude :/ It wasn't my intention :/ I was just converting the metrics too imperial, since it appears that most people here use imperial ^^'
I thought you said that I had equal amounts of [malt] and [cinnamon + coffee], but now I get it. I do haveroughly the same amount f base malt and [other malts + cinnamon + coffee]

I guess I'll just find another recipe then! I didn't know that using more special malts (cara, roasted, etc.) changed that much the result, I thought it just changed the flavours and sugar content

 

[clementverdier]

Did you filter the wort when it was added to the fermentor or did you pour it in? Both are valid techniques. Each will yield a different result.

Nope, i didn't filter it, as I assumed the only thing left was hop, coffee and wort.

One last thing- if the cinnamon was in the BIAB bag, how did you boil it without boiling any of the grains? That sounds like it may have been difficult.

I used the BIAB bag for the malt, emptied it and cleaned it after the mash step, and put cinnamon in it for the boiling part

 

[Yooper]

Sorry I appeared rude :/ It wasn't my intention :/ I was just converting the metrics too imperial, since it appears that most people here use imperial ^^'
I thought you said that I had equal amounts of [malt] and [cinnamon + coffee], but now I get it. I do haveroughly the same amount f base malt and [other malts + cinnamon + coffee]

I guess I'll just find another recipe then! I didn't know that using more special malts (cara, roasted, etc.) changed that much the result, I thought it just changed the flavours and sugar content

When you use specialty malts, you may not have complete conversion if you don't have enough diastatic power in the base grain. You may have- but I think there is something going on with that much sediment, even with BIAB.

Maybe unconverted starches, definitely sediment from the cinnamon sticks (don't believe me, boil a couple in the microwave in water!), etc.

If the grain did convert, it's quite possible that it's just trub from the grains. So if you want to stick with that recipe, use a bigger fermenter.

How does the beer siphoned off the top taste?

 

[clementverdier]

When you use specialty malts, you may not have complete conversion if you don't have enough diastatic power in the base grain. You may have- but I think there is something going on with that much sediment, even with BIAB.

Thanks a lot for these info!

Maybe unconverted starches, definitely sediment from the cinnamon sticks (don't believe me, boil a couple in the microwave in water!), etc.

If the grain did convert, it's quite possible that it's just trub from the grains. So if you want to stick with that recipe, use a bigger fermenter.

I do believe you, that cinnamon will, at least partly dissolve in water, that's where the taste comes from =D
If it was trub, wouldn't it sediment faster? It took 4 days (during which the bubbler was bubbling) for the sediment layer to appear. Or are the yeasts just mixing everything while fermenting?

How does the beer siphoned off the top taste?

It tasted great (haven't tried the bottled one yet), but before bottle fermentation, it tasted good. A bit high in alcohol, so not really the silky thing I had in mind.

 

[clementverdier]

Oh, and as I assume there will not be a better solution than yours (appart from a magic fairy that can change the laws of brewing =D), I'll just change my recipe, because if I understand you right, changing the fermenter won't change the amount of sediment, it will just make it easier to get rid of it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I assume there will not be a better solution

1-Gallon Brewers UNITE. Start at the end and work backwards. Many good "small batch" brewers there who will confirm / refine what @Yooper as been saying here.

 

[Stand]

It sounds like you're getting some good info for your next round. It's probably a combination of the above mentioned.

For the beer you have now I would leave it in the fermenter for awhile, so the sediment can continue to compact. Otherwise you're going to lose a ton of beer. US-05 isn't a particularly flocculent yeast.

 

[clementverdier]

It sounds like you're getting some good info for your next round. It's probably a combination of the above mentioned.

For the beer you have now I would leave it in the fermenter for awhile, so the sediment can continue to compact. Otherwise you're going to lose a ton of beer. US-05 isn't a particularly flocculent yeast.

Yeah, i guess it's not a single cause messing with me :'(

How long would you leave it in the fermenter? And should I still put it in the fridge?

 

[Yooper]

I do BIAB sometimes on my system. It's much bigger, but it's the same type of results. Because the I don't really lauter the traditional way, and instead use the bag, I get a LOT of sediment just from the mash. I transfer to the boil kettle, though, so that sediment gets separated out. In a traditional BIAB, you have that sediment in the kettle. That's ok, it won't hurt anything- but that's what is responsible for quite a bit of the sediment. You can accept that and it's fine, or you can let it sit for a bit after the boil and only transfer the clear wort off of the sediment from the boil kettle.

Either the sediment will be in the mash tun, in the boil kettle, or in the fermenter. It's got to go somewhere. The more grain in a batch, the more sediment you'll get- that's one reason you have so much! So a bigger fermenter (or accepting a smaller amount of finished beer) is one way to make up for that.

If the beer tastes good, no need to change the recipe! Just siphon from the top once the beer above the sediment is clear. If it's finished, you can place the fermenter in the fridge to get the S05 to drop out more, and encouraging the sediment in there already to compact more.

Trust me (or not, it's the internet after all..........), the sediment there is NOT mostly yeast. Yes, there is some, but definitely not the bulk of the trub there. Changing the amount of yeast won't solve this, so that's why I'm trying to help.

 

[Stand]

Cold will make things happen faster, but I don't know how long it will take. I'd guess a week or so in the fridge will drop a lot of the yeast, but the good thing about your fermenter is that you can check it and see.

I forgot to ask: did you take a final gravity reading? Are you sure fermentation finished before you put it in the fridge?

Did you use a fining like irish moss or whirlflock tablet? That might help a lot in the future as well if you didn't.

 

[clementverdier]

I forgot to ask: did you take a final gravity reading? Are you sure fermentation finished before you put it in the fridge?

Did you use a fining like irish moss or whirlflock tablet? That might help a lot in the future as well if you didn't.

I didn't take a FG reading on my first batch as I didn't have my refractometer then :/ but the bubbler had stopped bubbling for 1.5 weeks, so I assumed it was ok.

I didn't use any fining, as I thought it was mostly yeast in the trub. But that's something I'll keep in mind for next time!

 

[clementverdier]

Thanks a lot everybody for your help! I greatly appreciate it, and I learned quite a lot of things (first of which, my recipe was not optimal from the beginning).

I'll try another type of beer for my next batch, to see how this one turns out in the end, and if it's really good, and worth buying 3kg of malt for 6 bottles, I might try it again!

I'll come back here to give you some news of the taste once I've tasted both batches =D