Too much head!

[Joker_on_Jack]

I am drinking my way through an IPA that I made a few months ago and am having extreme amounts of head, so much so that I am really having a hard time getting any beer to pour the bottle conditioned beer without getting 7/8 head in my glass.

I tried a few things I haven't done in the past for this brew:
Mashed at 155F
Hop stand for 30 min at 175F

The beer turned out fantastic but how do I get less head on this thing?

 

[feinbera]

Your mash and hop stand probably aren't the reason. Without knowing more about your recipe and process, it's hard to say what is, but, I'd look into one of the following:

1. Too much priming sugar; especially likely if this batch has always been foamy
2. Fermentation wasn't quite finished when you bottled; more likely if you bottled just a few weeks after brewing, didn't take gravity readings a couple days apart to make sure it was done, or finished higher than you expected; this would probably also develop soon after the batch was carbonated
3. Too many "head retention" adjuncts (wheat, carapils, etc.); again, more likely if this batch has always been too foamy
4. Poor mixing of priming sugar, leaving some bottles more carbonated than others; you would probably notice this right away, unless you're only drinking a bottle a month or something
5. Infection; this could take a while longer to develop, but you should see some other telltale signs - a ring of gunk at the waterline in the bottle, sour or funky off-flavors, etc.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Thanks for the input.

My recipe is:

7#8 of rahr 2-row
5#0 of golden promise
2#6 of rahr red wheat
1#1 of golden naked oats
0#14 of Rye malt

I go through 3 oz of hops on the boil, 2 oz on the stand and 2oz for dry hopping using el dorado, citra, and amarillo

My best guess is that the wheat and all the hop oils are the cause. All of the bottles are the same high head, I used the northern brewer priming sugar calculator (and it really doesn't seem over carbonated) for the 5 gal of beer I had and I hit 1.010 for FG

I really would like to not change the recipe much since it is sooooo good, but will have to do something to make it come out less heady.

 

[ronjonacron]

Is it foaming in.the bottle when you open it? I hate to point to the obvious, but maybe pouring to aggressively? If its not foaming in the bottle before you pour, try leaving a bottle for a couple minutes after youve popped the top. See if that helps.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I don't believe it is my pouring, I am pretty careful and the four other beers I have bottled currently don't have this problem. It does not seem to bubble excessively when I open the bottle either.

 

[bethebrew]

That's a lot of other grains, all of which are contributing to your head retention. Not sure why you feel the need to add wheat, oats, and rye to your ipa. Other than the rye, I think I'd ditch the others completely, and up the pale. Maybe throw in 8 oz crystal, and even a smidge of Carafa II or chocolate for a little color/depth.

 

[duboman]

Sounds like it's over primed to me, what was the finished volume of beer and how much sugar did you use and to what volume of co2 did you desire? Head retention and too much head are two different issues and are results of different, not always associated with each other

 

[bethebrew]

Sounds like it's over primed to me, what was the finished volume of beer and how much sugar did you use and to what volume of co2 did you desire? Head retention and too much head are two different issues and are results of different, not always associated with each other

Seriously? Dude has 4 1/2 lbs. of head retaining grains in his recipe. He's already said he didn't have too much carbonation, just too much head.

Over primed? Really?

 

[zachattack]

Seriously? Dude has 4 1/2 lbs. of head retaining grains in his recipe. He's already said he didn't have too much carbonation, just too much head.

Over primed? Really?

Yeah, I'm also going with over primed. I've made hefeweizens with 60% wheat, carbed to 3 volumes of CO2, and did not have 7/8 of my glass filled with foam. It's not the ingredients. Head retention is about the longevity of foam, not the quantity.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

That's a lot of other grains, all of which are contributing to your head retention. Not sure why you feel the need to add wheat, oats, and rye to your ipa. Other than the rye, I think I'd ditch the others completely, and up the pale. Maybe throw in 8 oz crystal, and even a smidge of Carafa II or chocolate for a little color/depth.

Seriously? Dude has 4 1/2 lbs. of head retaining grains in his recipe. He's already said he didn't have too much carbonation, just too much head.

Over primed? Really?

I use rye wheat and oats in my IPAs, adding in crystal will change the profile (which he enjoys) and chocolate/carafa!?!!

Have you ever had a belgian wit, that's 50% wheat...
Head retaining grains are just that "head retaining" not "head creating"

OPs beer is over primed. Really...

EDIT:
OP when you pop the tops. Does it sound louder than commercial brews? Does the cap FLY off the bottle?
How much priming sugar in how much volume of beer?
How many bottles did you end up with?
Did you mix sugar into suspension in the bottling bucket or carbing tabs?
How

 

[duboman]

Seriously? Dude has 4 1/2 lbs. of head retaining grains in his recipe. He's already said he didn't have too much carbonation, just too much head.

Over primed? Really?

Yeah dude, really............

You just said it yourself, head retaining, not head creating!

I brew wheats and Wits and lots of other beers that have 50+% of those ingredients in some cases and the head on those beers is not any greater or less than other styles I brew. If the OP is properly pouring beer and 75% of the glass winds up being foam/head, it's over carbonated.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

wow this blew up...

I put .6 cups of priming sugar (corn sugar) in 5 gallons of beer. The retention is super high on this and I was expecting that because of the grains. I will pop one of these when I get home from work and take some detailed notes.

 

[duboman]

wow this blew up... I put .6 cups of priming sugar (corn sugar) in 5 gallons of beer. The retention is super high on this and I was expecting that because of the grains. I will pop one of these when I get home from work and take some detailed notes.

It is really best to weigh your sugar to the gram than measure by volume, it is much more precise.

When measuring by volume there is too much fluctuation in terms of how much sugar you really have.

You can test this by measuring one in volume and one by weight and you will see quite a difference between the two samples.

It is also important to note the temperature of the beer as well as the actual finished volume of the beer. Colder beer will retain more co2 in suspension then warmer beer so that needs to be taken into account when calculating.

As mentioned, certain grains will assist in retaining head duration and lacing and to some degree more or less head but more specific grains does not translate to a glass of foam.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I do use the final volume of beer and correct for temp. I probably should be weighing my priming sugar but I have not as of yet. I haven't had off carbonation in the past (about 15 batches now) so I wouldn't think I screwed it up now.

I just poured one and it poured with 2/3 head. The head stayed for 5 min without diminishing. The beer does not seem overly bubbly but may be higher than normal carbonation. Those who are pointing to head retention may be onto something as I don't think I have seen any of the bubbles at the top of the head really break down. Is it possible that I am just noticing this because the head is really not dissipating at all and I am seeing just the accumulation of the whole thing. I know that wits may have more head retention grains but I also hop bursted the hell out of this one, don't the hop oils play into head retention.

In any case I will be watching my carbonation adds a lot closer from now on. But the fact still remains that I would like to keep this recipe close to what it is, as I really think its good, while reducing some of this retention. The base malts were interpreted from the HBT discussion on Lagunitas Sucks, and the hop schedule was my first burst/stand hopping (I wanted to see what I got).

Also, can hop flavor, oil or bitterness cover up over carbonation. I am finding that if I now concentrate on it it seems extra bubbly.

 

[duboman]

I do use the final volume of beer and correct for temp. I probably should be weighing my priming sugar but I have not as of yet. I haven't had off carbonation in the past (about 15 batches now) so I wouldn't think I screwed it up now.

I just poured one and it poured with 2/3 head. The head stayed for 5 min without diminishing. The beer does not seem overly bubbly but may be higher than normal carbonation. Those who are pointing to head retention may be onto something as I don't think I have seen any of the bubbles at the top of the head really break down. Is it possible that I am just noticing this because the head is really not dissipating at all and I am seeing just the accumulation of the whole thing. I know that wits may have more head retention grains but I also hop bursted the hell out of this one, don't the hop oils play into head retention.

In any case I will be watching my carbonation adds a lot closer from now on. But the fact still remains that I would like to keep this recipe close to what it is, as I really think its good, while reducing some of this retention. The base malts were interpreted from the HBT discussion on Lagunitas Sucks, and the hop schedule was my first burst/stand hopping (I wanted to see what I got).

Also, can hop flavor, oil or bitterness cover up over carbonation. I am finding that if I now concentrate on it it seems extra bubbly.

I have really not noticed any difference between my hoppy beers or others as far as head formation and retention. I typically carb to about 2.5 vol for most beers and my Belgians or Wheats a bit higher. I generally get a good 1/2-1" of dense head that stays and creates nice lacing on the glass as it drinks. As the beer warms a bit, the head size decreases but remains throughout at about 1/8" or so on average.

I don't really think it's your recipe so I wouldn't change it. You should be getting a nice dense head that stays to some degree throughout the drink and lace nicely on the glass with that grain bill.

If the beer pours heavy foam and tastes overly bubbly it is most likely over carbonated, not the recipe.

Try to pour beginning at a nice 45 degrees about 1/3 of the glass and then slowly raise the glass level, allow the head to settle and top off. As a side note, Glassware must be absolutely clean! Any spots or debris will cause nucleation sites that will create excess foam. Also, any sort of rinse agent or film will kill head retention. Do a salt rub with a bit of water on a glass, rinse well and try a pour

 

[bethebrew]

I do use the final volume of beer and correct for temp. I probably should be weighing my priming sugar but I have not as of yet. I haven't had off carbonation in the past (about 15 batches now) so I wouldn't think I screwed it up now.

I just poured one and it poured with 2/3 head. The head stayed for 5 min without diminishing. The beer does not seem overly bubbly but may be higher than normal carbonation. Those who are pointing to head retention may be onto something as I don't think I have seen any of the bubbles at the top of the head really break down. Is it possible that I am just noticing this because the head is really not dissipating at all and I am seeing just the accumulation of the whole thing. I know that wits may have more head retention grains but I also hop bursted the hell out of this one, don't the hop oils play into head retention.

In any case I will be watching my carbonation adds a lot closer from now on. But the fact still remains that I would like to keep this recipe close to what it is, as I really think its good, while reducing some of this retention. The base malts were interpreted from the HBT discussion on Lagunitas Sucks, and the hop schedule was my first burst/stand hopping (I wanted to see what I got).

Also, can hop flavor, oil or bitterness cover up over carbonation. I am finding that if I now concentrate on it it seems extra bubbly.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/06/25/enhancing-beer-head-retention-for-home-brewers/

 

[LoloMT7]

He's already said he didn't have too much carbonation, just too much head.

I know that you can end up with a glass of flat beer if you over prime. You lose co2 when you pour it into the glass. I've over carbed a keg before and my pouring results were similar to the problem the OP is having with his bottles. I am going to guess that it got over-carbed also. There is always the chance that it wasn't finished in the fermenter so more then just priming sugar was left and got chewed through.

One other thing you might try is to leave them in the fridge for a full week or even 2 if you aren't already. This will give the liquid time to absorb some of the co2. Sounds crazy but if i take a bottle out of my closet at room temp and put in the fridge for only 2 or 3 hours it almost always does what your talking about. If i leave them a week they are fine.

Good luck figuring it out.

 

[bethebrew]

I know that you can end up with a glass of flat beer if you over prime. You lose co2 when you pour it into the glass. I've over carbed a keg before and my pouring results were similar to the problem the OP is having with his bottles. I am going to guess that it got over-carbed also. There is always the chance that it wasn't finished in the fermenter so more then just priming sugar was left and got chewed through.

One other thing you might try is to leave them in the fridge for a full week or even 2 if you aren't already. This will give the liquid time to absorb some of the co2. Sounds crazy but if i take a bottle out of my closet at room temp and put in the fridge for only 2 or 3 hours it almost always does what your talking about. If i leave them a week they are fine.

Good luck figuring it out.

Maybe you need to reed the link I just posted. The heavy and late hops he added in addition to wheat etc. are a possible cause of the head retention concerns in OP last post.

 

[LoloMT7]

Maybe you need to reed the link I just posted. The heavy and late hops he added in addition to wheat etc. are a possible cause of the head retention concerns in OP last post.

Thanks I've read a lot of BYO, and Beersmith links and I understand that the late hops he added in addition to wheat etc. are a POSSIBLE cause. Highly unlikely though imo.

 

[duboman]

Thanks I've read a lot of BYO, and Beersmith links and I understand that the late hops he added in addition to wheat etc. are a POSSIBLE cause. Highly unlikely though imo.

I too as well and again, the issue is not head retention, it appears to be retaining head perfectly fine, it's the excess head/foam that the OP is trying to figure out and I still believe it's over primed, see my last post as well, the OP is questioning a pour of a glass of mostly foam, let's not get sidetracked or derailed here

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

By all means, if we want to dove tail into hops and their contribution to head retention go ahead. I am pretty sure now that I over carbonated.

 

[bethebrew]

By all means, if we want to dove tail into hops and their contribution to head retention go ahead. I am pretty sure now that I over carbonated.

Perhaps had you actually weighed out your priming sugar, it wouldn't all be just a guess.



What I don't understand is you directly ask the question about hops and head retention, I post a link, then you say dove tail?

 

[axmdr40]

I'm a child...so I've got nothing to add other than state that you've got to be the first man in history to complain about this...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.