Tips on dry hopping a co-fermentation Sour

[Lperes27]

Hi folks,

I've made a co-fermentation (19L / 5gl) with Lactobacillus casei and S. cerevisiae (Fermentis BE-256) and it's currently on the 8th day since yeast inoculation. Yeast fermentation is already complete, however the LAB is still doing its thing.

Sourness is not on the right spot yet but it's progressing every day, thus I believe something around 4-6 days will do the trick. After reaching the desired sourness level I'm pretending to dry hop the beer to prevent further lacto action.

I'm not willing to ruin the delicious malt/honey flavor brought by caramunich/yeast nor overcome the spiceness from the yeast. So, I believe I'm looking for a hop that wouldn't 'make the scene' but add something interesting. Currently I have 40g(1.4oz) of Saaz sitting in my fridge, but I've never used it in dry hopping.

What are your thoughts? Any advice on mild hops for dry hopping?



Recipe:
3.2kg(7.0lbs) pilsner
1.0kg(2.2lbs) wheat malt
0.5kg(1.1lbs) caramunich III
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.006
2g(0.07oz) of Magnum @ 60' = IBU 3,90

Pitched L. casei @ 42°C (107°F) for 24h then,
Pitched S. cerevisiae @17°C (62°F)

 

[jfolks]

Saaz sounds like a great mild/appropriate choice to me. My guess is 2oz will help stop souring, but you’ll definitely pick up some dry hop flavor no matter what variety you use. Could always try a neutral high alpha hop like magnum - maybe .5 oz would be sufficient?

 

[Lperes27]

hopping?

That's a good idea! I also have some Magnum in stock. Maybe adding 0.3oz to Saaz in order to complete the 2.0z? I couldn't find any hard data on how much hops should be used in DH to stop the lacto, but since this is actually an experiment batch, I will follow your guess.

Albeit Magnum tends to be neutral hop when used in early additions, it seems it may impart some floral/herbal notes when used as single hop, as described at Brülosophy Hop Chronicles: http://brulosophy.com/2017/02/02/the-hop-chronicles-magnum/

These are some characteristics that I think it would blend well with honey/biscuit notes.

 

[Soulshine2]

Hi folks,

I've made a co-fermentation (19L / 5gl) with Lactobacillus casei and S. cerevisiae (Fermentis BE-256) and it's currently on the 8th day since yeast inoculation. Yeast fermentation is already complete, however the LAB is still doing its thing.

Sourness is not on the right spot yet but it's progressing every day, thus I believe something around 4-6 days will do the trick. After reaching the desired sourness level I'm pretending to dry hop the beer to prevent further lacto action.

I'm not willing to ruin the delicious malt/honey flavor brought by caramunich/yeast nor overcome the spiceness from the yeast. So, I believe I'm looking for a hop that wouldn't 'make the scene' but add something interesting. Currently I have 40g(1.4oz) of Saaz sitting in my fridge, but I've never used it in dry hopping.

What are your thoughts? Any advice on mild hops for dry hopping?



Recipe:
3.2kg(7.0lbs) pilsner
1.0kg(2.2lbs) wheat malt
0.5kg(1.1lbs) caramunich III
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.006
2g(0.07oz) of Magnum @ 60' = IBU 3,90

Pitched L. casei @ 42°C (107°F) for 24h then,
Pitched S. cerevisiae @17°C (62°F)

from what Ive read on sours ( I brewed one just yesterday and Ive read quite a bit beforehand) in order to keep the sour up front and still hop it without it getting in the way of that , use a Hallertauer offspring/variety ,keeping the IBUs lower than 8 .
My choice ,since I grew it here at home and just harvested, is 1 oz of whole hop Crystal in my second boil. Other considerations could be Mt Hood or Tettnanger, which I also grew .

 

[brownni5]

from what Ive read on sours ( I brewed one just yesterday and Ive read quite a bit beforehand) in order to keep the sour up front and still hop it without it getting in the way of that , use a Hallertauer offspring/variety ,keeping the IBUs lower than 8 .
My choice ,since I grew it here at home and just harvested, is 1 oz of whole hop Crystal in my second boil. Other considerations could be Mt Hood or Tettnanger, which I also grew .

Depending on the strain of bacteria used, any hops at all could prevent souring. I don't think the variety is as important as the IBU, but Noble varieties typically have low AA.

For the OP - saaz would be a great choice. I don't think 2oz is too much, but I think you could halt souring with less.

 

[Lperes27]

Depending on the strain of bacteria used, any hops at all could prevent souring. I don't think the variety is as important as the IBU, but Noble varieties typically have low AA.

For the OP - saaz would be a great choice. I don't think 2oz is too much, but I think you could halt souring with less.

I'll test 2oz and check the outcome. I'm planning to bottle this by the end of this month and give it at least 2 weeks for conditioning. So, probably end of September I will have the results and will post the feedback here.

However, for a more 'concrete' prove if the souring halted, I will have to keep tasting a bottle each month in order to notice if something has changed. Not a difficult task imo. lol

 

[RPh_Guy]

For what it's worth, I successfully stop L plantarum with only 0.5 oz of Czech Saaz.

Based on that, I suggest 0.75 oz of Saaz.

 

[Dgallo]

Centennial plays very nice in a spicy rye so I bet it would work great with a spicy yeast character. Maybe mixing saaz and centennial would work great. I’d stay under 2oz if you’re not looking for it to add to the overall be but not move to the forefront

 

[Lperes27]

For what it's worth, I successfully stop L plantarum with only 0.5 oz of Czech Saaz.

Based on that, I suggest 0.75 oz of Saaz.

Centennial plays very nice in a spicy rye so I bet it would work great with a spicy yeast character. Maybe mixing saaz and centennial would work great. I’d stay under 2oz if you’re not looking for it to add to the overall be but not move to the forefront

Interesting... I was afraid smaller quantities wouldn't work, however by your statements it seems that it sure does.

I do also have some Centennial, althought kind of aged.. I'll check if it's still good and maybe go 0.35oz/0.35oz Saaz/Centennial.

 

[Lperes27]

My fellow brewers,

I would like to give a feedback on how this beer turned out. I've ended up dry hopping with 1oz of Saaz and as expected it halted the souring and had little to no influence in the flavor/aroma.

I bottled half of the batch as is and the other half I throwed 4.4lbs (2kg) of raspberry - 200g/L. I've attached a picture of it. It has bright red color (not well shown in the pic), tartness on the right spot but unfortunately by now, for my taste it has too much raspberry flavor on it. However, I believe this 'fresh flavor' will mellow with time.

Thank you all for the help!!

 

[goodolarchie]

200g/L is pretty intense for a rubus fruit addition, but give it time, I'll bet it improves. I did a raspberry mixed ferm that I initially felt was just too astringent (like seeds), puckering, a bit herbaceous, somewhat bitter and lacked any subtlety or nuance. That was March. Now I am savoring every last drop of that keg because it's the best beer I have on hand.

 

[Lperes27]

200g/L is pretty intense for a rubus fruit addition, but give it time, I'll bet it improves. I did a raspberry mixed ferm that I initially felt was just too astringent (like seeds), puckering, a bit herbaceous, somewhat bitter and lacked any subtlety or nuance. That was March. Now I am savoring every last drop of that keg because it's the best beer I have on hand.

It is pretty intense! Probably next time I will cut at least 50g per liter in order to leave some room for the malt and yeast character although maybe I'm being a little stubborn, as many people who tried my beer loved it and said the raspberry flavor was in the right amount.

And I do feel some herbaceous notes but no astringent or bitter, so I see this as being a good thing already.

I've kind of followed what was on the Milk the Funk wiki for Cantillon:

200 g/l (1.67 lbs/gal) Cantillon Rose de Gambrinus
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Soured_Fruit_Beer

 

[goodolarchie]

It is pretty intense! Probably next time I will cut at least 50g per liter in order to leave some room for the malt and yeast character although maybe I'm being a little stubborn, as many people who tried my beer loved it and said the raspberry flavor was in the right amount.

And I do feel some herbaceous notes but no astringent or bitter, so I see this as being a good thing already.

I've kind of followed what was on the Milk the Funk wiki for Cantillon:

200 g/l (1.67 lbs/gal) Cantillon Rose de Gambrinus
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Soured_Fruit_Beer

So how it tasting now? Mellowed at all?

 

[Lperes27]

So how it tasting now? Mellowed at all?

I've tasted a bottle last weekend 12/14 and it has mellowed almost nothing, still a nice raspberry juice .

I'm almost running out of bottles, but I'm planning to save at least one to open mid June next year.

Hey, do you have experience with blackberries? I have something around 20L of a very nice mixed ferm (sacc.+brett+lacto) and I'm willing to test this delicious fruit.

 

[goodolarchie]

I've tasted a bottle last weekend 12/14 and it has mellowed almost nothing, still a nice raspberry juice .

I'm almost running out of bottles, but I'm planning to save at least one to open mid June next year.

Hey, do you have experience with blackberries? I have something around 20L of a very nice mixed ferm (sacc.+brett+lacto) and I'm willing to test this delicious fruit.

Yes blackberries are lovely, a lot of folks blend the two. You use them just like raspberries or any rubus fruit. I'm a fan of Black Cap for my beers and I usually stick with 1lb/gal, or 100g/1L unless you want a beer similar in berry intensity to what you have here. I err on the side of subtlety and let some brett characteristics shine through. Boysenberry is my favorite.

 

[Lperes27]

Yes blackberries are lovely, a lot of folks blend the two. You use them just like raspberries or any rubus fruit. I'm a fan of Black Cap for my beers and I usually stick with 1lb/gal, or 100g/1L unless you want a beer similar in berry intensity to what you have here. I err on the side of subtlety and let some brett characteristics shine through. Boysenberry is my favorite.

I'm with you! Normally I seek subtle notes of the fruit I've added in order to let the beer shine as it should. 100g/L will be!

Unfortunately I believe we don't have Boysenberry here in Brazil, however blackberries are all over the place. I'll open a new thread once I have the results.