Times and temperatures for brewing

[RiderEh]

Hi all,

I've been lurking for a while and decided to post a few questions. I am using Baron's and Brew House wort-in-a-bag kits for my brewing as I am still learning.

I've been doing 2 the following:

1weeks primary at 20 C (heat belt) for ales, 16C for lager (this is my basement temp).
1 week secondary same temperatures
I rack then leave for another week in secondary same temperatures
I bottle, I am then leaving 2 weeks to carbonate in my pantry at 20C

Should I leave 3 weeks for carbonation? I seem to have plenty of carbonation. Should I refrigerate right after carbonation? At what temperature? Note I am setting up a fridge where I can adjust the temperature for brewing purposes
Should I stir continuously when bottling, or just rack onto the dextrose/syrup? Or stir every few bottles? I am using 190 grams dextrose for a 23L kit.

For lagering, should the yeast be at the lagering temperature? I am using wyeast and right now just lagering at 16 C but want to set up my fridge to go colder.

How do I cold condition, how long, what temp and when?

 

[BigCypress]

So much metric makes my brain hurt.

I'm assuming that you're using a bottling bucket. You want to boil your priming sugar in water and allow it to cool down to around room temperature. When you're ready to rack, first pour the sugar syrup into the bottom of the bottling bucket. Actually, first would be making sure the spigot is in the closed position (ask me how I know). When you're siphoning the beer from the fermenter into the bottling bucket, you want it to flow as smoothly as possible. The end of the tube (you sanitized everything, hopefully) should rest at the bottom so there's no splashing. If you agitate your beer at this point you'll introduce oxygen, which can skunk your beer.

If you do it correctly, the beer flowing from the carboy/fermenter will gently swirl in the bottling bucket, usually giving you a nice and even distribution of the priming sugar. Let gravity do the stirring for you.

Good luck and happy homebrewing.


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[RiderEh]

OK, thanks for the bottling tips. I did the first kit and stirred it slowly a bunch, seems to be good carbonation. the second kit (a pilsner) I did it as you said and did not stir. The LHBS said to stir it a bit every 3 bottles though for some reason to keep it stirred up.

But what about times and temps?

 

[BigCypress]

Can't help you much with lagers, but for ales I usually keep the temps in the mid-60s (Farenheit, so about 17-20 C) until primary fermentation ends, then slowly bring it up to about 70 F (21 C) and let it sit in primary (I skip secondary) for about three or four weeks total (from brew day to bottling). I have an old mini-fridge I use for fermenting, so it's easy to keep the temps in a relatively narrow range.

In any case, you'll typically find temperature ranges listed on the yeast packet. As long as you keep it above the minimum (slow or stuck fermentation) and below the max (off flavors, fusel alcohols), it should turn out fine.

Once you're bottled, three weeks should be enough time to carb them up. I usually just keep them around 70 F (21 C) in a dark closet. Keep in mind that some extra aging time in bottles (from weeks to months, to even years depending on the style) can change the flavors and character of some beers (or reduce certain off flavors if they exist).

Regardless, once those initial three weeks are done, you can stash the beers in your normal fridge. The finished/carbed beer will absorb more CO2 at the colder temps in your fridge (but you wouldn't want to bottle condition in the fridge since it would keep the yeasties from doing their job).

 

[RiderEh]

What do you mean by "The finished/carbed beer will absorb more CO2 at the colder temps in your fridge"?

The bubbles will be stored throughout the beer instead of just at the bottom or? Or will carbonation decrease? I'm quite interested if I should store my beer in a fridge or my basement at 16 Celsius. also, what fridge temperature is best?

 

[BigFloyd]

What do you mean by "The finished/carbed beer will absorb more CO2 at the colder temps in your fridge"?

The bubbles will be stored throughout the beer instead of just at the bottom or? Or will carbonation decrease? I'm quite interested if I should store my beer in a fridge or my basement at 16 Celsius. also, what fridge temperature is best?

I think he meant that a few days in the fridge prior to drinking will help cause some of the CO2 in the headspace to dissolve into the cooler beer. It also help settle out and firm up the little yeast trub layer in the bottom.

17-18*C would be a better temp to shoot for in an ale fermentation the first 3-4 days. When it begins to slow is when you warm it to 20-21*C until finished.

Lagers? Pitch TWICE the yeast that you would in an ale into wort that's been chilled into the 8*C range (well-oxygenated too) and ferment most strains at 10-11*C. After it has slowed quite a bit, bring it up to 17*C for a few days to help get rid of diacetyl. Lager at 1-2*C.

 

[m1batt1]

Warm liquid does not hold gas in suspension very well. Think about how a soda foams more when warm compared to chilled. So chilled beer retains its carbonation longer after pouring.

The cooler you can keep the beer long term the longer it will last I believe. But temps for drinking depend on the beer style and the person drinking it.

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[RiderEh]

I thought it was better to age the beer at cooler temperatures to get better flavour? And then refrigerate before drinking. A little confused here.

Also, the next beer I'm going to try will be a lager. I'm planning on fermenting at 10 C for a week, then racking off, and fermenting for 4 weeks more in a carboy at 10C. But do I do diacetyl rest right after I rack to carboy or before? Should the SG be below 1.020 before the diacetyl rest? Should the carboy fermentation be lower than 10C?

 

[m1batt1]

For the carbonation phase in the bottle you want temps around that of your fermentation temperatures so the yeast can work. Beyond that cooler is better yes. But if you get them too cold during carbonation the yeast will go dormant and won't eat the priming sugar.

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[BigFloyd]

I thought it was better to age the beer at cooler temperatures to get better flavour? And then refrigerate before drinking. A little confused here.

Also, the next beer I'm going to try will be a lager. I'm planning on fermenting at 10 C for a week, then racking off, and fermenting for 4 weeks more in a carboy at 10C. But do I do diacetyl rest right after I rack to carboy or before? Should the SG be below 1.020 before the diacetyl rest? Should the carboy fermentation be lower than 10C?

You'll want to leave it in the primary and on the yeast longer than that for sure. Do the d-rest at 18*C in the primary after the beer has gotten 75-80% of the way from OG to expected FG.

Only rack to a carboy for lagering once it's done fermenting and the d-rest is completed. It won't be fermenting there, but cold conditioning. That takes at least 5 weeks, maybe more (depending on what the OG was) at just above freezing. After that, you can prime/bottle it cold and store it at room temp (20-21*C) for a few weeks to carbonate.

 

[RiderEh]

Ok so I'm more than confused. LHBS guy said this:

Don't trust the net, too much misinformation
One Wyeast activator is enough
Set fridge to 10 C and ferment in primary for one week until SG reaches 1.020
Rack and ferment in secondary for 4 weeks at same temp until I reach FG
Cold condition
bottle and let sit 3 weeks
its better to not leave beer in refrigerator after these 3 carbonation weeks, prevents proper aging

Now what I understand from you guys is this:

I'll need two activator wyeast packs
Leave in primary longer than a week at 10 C, I assume until 1.020
raise temp for d-rest at 18C approx.
drop down to 10 C until FG
rack and lager at say 4 C? for 5 weeks
cold condition close to 0
bottle

So care to pick apart the above? Why is he suggesting doing things differently?

 

[BigFloyd]

Lagers need twice the pitch rate vs. ales. Period. It's because lager yeast is a different species, not just a different strain.

If your LHBS guy tells you that one Wyeast smack pack is enough for a 5 gallon lager, that by itself tells me that he knows very little to nothing about yeast and proper pitch rates. Under pitching can lead to a variety of problems. Did this guy say anything about oxygenating lager wort really well if using liquid yeast? That's a critical part of having a healthy lager fermentation. Skip that, you'll likely have problems, especially if you under pitch too.

Go to Brewers Friend and use the yeast pitching calculator. The info you'll get there is based on research by Braukaiser and Chris White (White Labs yeast). I trust that those guys really know their yeast. Unless you are doing a pretty good sized starter on a stir plate, you'll want to pitch multiple (more than two) smack packs in a medium gravity lager. http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Did he ever give you a reason as to why you'd want to move a lager out of the primary (and off the yeast) after just a week? If he says anything about autolysis or that leaving it on the yeast past a week creates off-flavors, that will tell you for sure that, even though he owns a store, he really isn't keeping up with good brew practices. Want a stuck fermentation? Do exactly what he's telling you.

Did your guy mention the need for a diacetyl rest? Do you like beer that tastes like movie popcorn butter? That's what you could end up with if you don't do one.

Folks at LHBS very often hand out some really bad advice. There are examples galore related within this forum of some horribly misguided nonsense told to folks at the local stores. Those stores are thankfully in the minority, but they are out there.

 

[RiderEh]

I agree that it seams one activator pack may not be enough, even the Wyeast site says this. I'm wondering if this guy just is doing things 'old ways' or keeping it simple for me as he knows I'm a beginner brewer. And here I was thinking beer would be easier than wine, hah!

He claimed moving out of the primary would help the beer clear up. We spoke a bit of d-rest, but again not much detail.

So is my second method based on everyones comments sound?

 

[BigFloyd]

Lagers are, by their very nature, more technically demanding than ales.

Since you're a newer brewer, I would suggest that you put your lager brewing plans temporarily on hold. Brew a few more ales. Get your processes nailed down. Become comfortable and confident with the various aspects of the craft. Join a homebrew club. See if anyone there can help mentor you.

Spend more time hanging out here and learning. Just that helped me learn lots of very useful stuff.

Moving it out of the primary doesn't help clear the beer any more than leaving it sit in the primary an extra week or two. Careful movement of the fermenter just prior to bottling and good siphoning technique help a lot. Cold crashing the primary is your best friend if you're interested in clear beer. I don't use a secondary on my lagers and I've had people ask me what I do to filter them.

 

[RiderEh]

I'm up for the challenge of a lager, if I fail I don't think the beer wouldn't be drinkable anyways, just not a true lager. For one, I don't like Ale's much. Gotta learn somehow! I've also been making wine for quite some time so I know about the sanitation part, and the process.

I always rack my beer to the bottling bucket where it ferments. I have a nice shelf setup so the only movement would be lifting it up one shelf, which I do right after I rack anyways. I don't find this a concern. I'm just trying to figure out the duration and what temps to hold the beer at while lagering. Can you confirm if this is an ok method or if there are improvements?

I'll need two activator wyeast packs (bought a second already)
Leave in primary longer than a week at 10 C, until I reach 75% fermentation (I have assumed SG of 1.049, FG of 1.014, so this should be at 1.020), may take 2 weeks
raise temp for d-rest at 18C approx. for 24-48 hrs
drop down to 10 C until FG
rack and lager at say 4 C? for 5 weeks or so
cold condition close to 0 for a week
bottle