Time for another round of "Is this beer infected?"

[chrispokey]

Hey folks, I'm brewing a Kolsch-style beer and added some orange zest and coriander to the secondary two days ago. simple question – is this appearance anything to be concerned of? And if so, is there something I can do about it now to mitigate any contamination or off flavors?

I'll add a bunch more context below the images.

Batch size: 5G
OG: 1.060
Hydrometer reading before racking to secondary: 1.018
Fermented and stored in secondary at 62° F
Added 1.5 tsp orange zest and 1 tsp crushed coriander to bottom of secondary before siphoning beer into secondary which are the orange floating chunks you see in the photos

As for the additions to the secondary, I thoroughly washed the fruit with fruit wash before zesting the oranges. However, I chose to not boil or soak in vodka as I read due to the levels of alcohol in the beer there's very little chance bacteria will grow assuming I take proper precautions to sanitize equipment and wash the fruit.

One other thing I'll note is that this is the first time I'm racking to a new secondary which is 6G for a 5G batch. Perhaps I should get a 5G secondary instead as the extra headspace could be another risk factor? When adding fruit I read there is a likelihood for some slight additional fermentation to take place (which I did hear some bubbling of the airlock) so I was thinking a little extra headroom could be OK, but maybe this is too much?

Anyway, I've looked at several other posts and photos of infected beer and I think I may be OK, but I'm not confident. I'm hoping this is just another one of those new-ish brewer overreactions but thought I'd get some input from the community. I have not messed with or touched the carboy since racking to secondary as I've learned it's usually best to just let it sit. That being said, if this might be an infection, is there something I can do now to make the situation better?

Thanks in advance!

 

[RM-MN]

Your orange zest and coriander created nucleation sites for the CO2 to come out of solution and form the bubbles on the surface you see. At this point there is no indication of infection. However, moving the beer to secondary is not necessary and leaving that much head space above the beer does invite infection unless your sanitation is top notch.

 

[chrispokey]

Thank you @RM-MN , that's helpful to know. Can you please elaborate a bit more on this piece? Would you recommend I just move to kegging and carbing the beer now? (the beer was actively fermenting for ~10 days and now has been almost 3 days in secondary)

However, moving the beer to secondary is not necessary

Also I'm assuming I should I try to exchange my 6G glass carboy for a 5G for future batches... Seems like I went too big as you mentioned. Thanks

 

[hotbeer]

I think it's okay too. So far!

If you are going to be making this again, why not try it without moving to a secondary and see if you find any difference. Might save you some hassle.

In most cases there really isn't a need for a secondary, IMO. If fermentation gets active again in the primary after adding your late additions to the FV, then it might cloud up a little more, but given time, it'll all go to the bottom again.

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome to HomebrewTalk!

Also would you recommend I try to exchange my 6G glass carboy for a 5G for future batches? Seems like I went too big as you mentioned.

Please be advised, most of us homebrewers don't use glass fermenters anymore for "routine" fermentations.* There are plenty of better and safer (unbreakable) plastic (or even stainless steel) alternatives (e.g., brew buckets, Fermonster, Fermzilla, All Rounder, etc.).

There's an inherent danger of serious bodily injury caused by (often unexpected) breakage of large glass carboys. Aside from occasional user error, a large portion of large glass vessel breakage is because of shoddy manufacturing and lack of Quality Control (QC) standards.

Here's some testimony to that, but be warned, it contains some gruesome imagery:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

* Some homebrewers are still using glass carboys (carefully) for bulk aging of sours, with minimal handling. Using (stainless steel) kegs for bulk aging, instead, is a much better and safer alternative.

Except in some rare cases (e.g., bulk aging of strong beers and sours), the use of secondaries is generally not needed or even recommended anymore, as it doesn't provide any advantages but has many potential drawbacks (risk of oxidation, infection, etc.). Leave it where it is in the (primary) fermenter until ready to package.

 

[chrispokey]

Welcome to HomebrewTalk!



Please be advised, most of us homebrewers don't use glass fermenters anymore for "routine" fermentations.* There are plenty of better and safer (unbreakable) plastic (or even stainless steel) alternatives (e.g., brew buckets, Fermonster, Fermzilla, All Rounder, etc.).

There's an inherent danger of serious bodily injury caused by (often unexpected) breakage of large glass carboys. Aside from occasional user error, a large portion of large glass vessel breakage is because of shoddy manufacturing and lack of Quality Control (QC) standards.

Here's some testimony to that, but be warned, it contains some gruesome imagery:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

* Some homebrewers are still using glass carboys (carefully) for bulk aging of sours, with minimal handling. Using (stainless steel) kegs for bulk aging, instead, is a much better and safer alternative.

Except in some rare cases (e.g., bulk aging of strong beers and sours), the use of secondaries is generally not needed or even recommended anymore, as it doesn't provide any advantages but has many potential drawbacks (risk of oxidation, infection, etc.). Leave it where it is in the (primary) fermenter until ready to package.

Thanks for the warm welcome! It's super interesting to hear about the movement away from glass carboys and secondary fermenters in general. My impression was always that you didn't want to expose the beer to the dead yeast cells for too long, hence racking to a secondary can help produce a "cleaner" beer (whatever that means). Is that true?

That being said, it's a bit of a pain and introduces more oxidation and contamination risk as you pointed out so I'd gladly ditch the secondary if I can get the same results with just my plastic primary bucket. In this case, if I didn't want to add the orange zest and coriander during the last 10 min of the boil, would I essentially be able to still add them the same way I did here, except without racking to a secondary? (i.e. I'd just add the additions directly to the primary after fermentation is complete?)

Sorry, one other question. I have a temperature controlled kegerator and plan to keg this beer. Is it worth skipping another week in the secondary and just placing the carboy in the kegerator at ~42°F with the idea being it will mitigate spreading of contamination and pre-condition the beer to carbonation temps? Or transfer the beer to my homebrew keg and pre-condition to carbonation temps?

Thanks for the attention and I'm thankful for all the wisdom of the community thus far! (Should've joined HBT sooner )

 

[fluketamer]

ill admit i did briefly glance at the pictures but based on statistics i am going to say it is not infected.

oh and welcome to hbt

 

[IslandLizard]

It's super interesting to hear about the movement away from glass carboys [...]

Yeah, that notion started around 2010-2012 when those "ribbed" carboys (the kind you have) didn't only come from Italy anymore. The thick and heavy smooth sided ones from Mexico (embossed in the bottom) also started to disappear.

Now even glass carboys that are made to proper specs with adequate QC could still cause serious injuries when compromised. So best to avoid them for routine use.

When used and handled, use special precautions to prevent calamities. Glass is extremely slippery when wet, coming out of a tub of water (swamp cooler) or fridge used for ferm temp control. You're moving 40-50 pounds of liquid inside a glass bubble of unknown thickness and ...
Don't rely on those steel carboy "carriers" clamped around the neck. They're meant to carry empty carboys!

For carboys with liquid in them, use a "Brew Hauler" instead. It's a "web" or "net" around the carboy with carrying straps that support the carboy from underneath the bottom. Still... it's glass and fragile! Best to avoid.

1 gallon glass jugs tend to be much safer when handled properly.

My impression was always that you didn't want to expose the beer to the dead yeast cells for too long,

Yeast autolysis doesn't occur that quickly in modern-day yeasts. Depending on the yeast, it takes 4-8 weeks, or longer, for autolysis to become an issue.

Read up on oxygen-free transfers and kegging.

 

[IslandLizard]

In this case, if I didn't want to add the orange zest and coriander during the last 10 min of the boil, would I essentially be able to still add them the same way I did here, except without racking to a secondary? (i.e. I'd just add the additions directly to the primary after fermentation is complete?)

Yup! You can add them through the airlock hole in the lid after (temporarily) removing the airlock. Use good sanitation of course!

Fresh fruit and spices may have yeasts and bacteria on their skin, so you could steep them in Everclear (or cheap vodka, whiskey, or some other booze) for a few days for better extraction while sanitizing them at the same time. Cutting them into smaller chunks or grinding into powder prior to soaking or adding directly to your fermenter will increase their surface area speeding up extraction potential.

IMO, submerging spices in beer is always better than letting them float on top.

 

[RM-MN]

My impression was always that you didn't want to expose the beer to the dead yeast cells for too long, hence racking to a secondary can help produce a "cleaner" beer (whatever that means). Is that true?

I chatted with another brewer a few years ago about leaving beer on the yeast too long. He said he had left a beer that way for 6 months and that wasn't too long.

As your beer finished fermenting the yeast begin to clump up and settle to the bottom. When you rack the beer to secondary, those clumps break up and you then can end up with cloudier beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Fresh fruit and spices may have yeasts and bacteria on their skin, so you could steep them in Everclear (or cheap vodka, whiskey, or some other booze) for a few days for better extraction while sanitizing them at the same time. Cutting them into smaller chunks or grinding into powder prior to soaking or adding directly to your fermenter will increase their surface area speeding up extraction potential.

I forgot to mention, add both the vodka tincture and the steeped spices to your fermenter, of course.

 

[fluketamer]

yeast autolysis is another one of those homebrew myths like the need for secondary fermenting or green tasting beer not being aged long enough. i drink 10 day grain to glass beer all the time and it is definately not "green"

 

[mashdar]

yeast autolysis is another one of those homebrew myths like the need for secondary fermenting or green tasting beer not being aged long enough. i drink 10 day grain to glass beer all the time and it is definately not "green"

Back in my day, we didn't pamper yeast so it could happily finish and go dormant. We brewed 1.070 beers with a single liquid yeast vial of unknown age. For the yeast it was like lord of the flies meets thunderdome. Poor little buggers.

 

[chrispokey]

I forgot to mention, add both the vodka tincture and the steeped spices to your fermenter, of course.

I strongly considered steeping the orange zest in vodka, but my thought was for such a light beer I was afraid the vodka would throw off the flavor and integrity of the beer, no?

 

[chrispokey]

Thanks for the insights. Any thoughts on my earlier question re: cutting the time in the secondary short and moving straight to kegging and carbing the beer?

I have a temperature controlled kegerator and plan to keg this beer. Is it worth skipping another week in the secondary and just placing the carboy in the kegerator at ~42°F with the idea being it will mitigate spreading of contamination and pre-condition the beer to carbonation temps? Or transfer the beer to my homebrew keg and pre-condition to carbonation temps?

 

[IslandLizard]

I strongly considered steeping the orange zest in vodka, but my thought was for such a light beer I was afraid the vodka would throw off the flavor and integrity of the beer, no?

2 to 4 oz of 80 proof vodka or 190 proof Everclear won't throw 5 gallons of beer off.

Citrus fruit zest (skin) is quite antiseptic as is, but if you're concerned about "bugs" living on other fruit skins (such as plums or peaches), you could sanitize them with Starsan or wipe off with alcohol, before adding to the beer.

Split, then scraped out vanilla beans and even chocolate nibs can be soaked in vodka (or 180 proof Everclear) to help extract more flavor and aroma before adding to beer. Even wood cubes can be soaked in liquor (Bourbon, whiskey, etc.) a couple weeks beforehand.