Thoughts on this Lacto/Brett Saison Recipe?

[MaxSpang]

Hey guys. I want to brew a Saison (which I've never brewed before), and me being the moron that I am I want to try something kind of wacky.

First off, here's the rough recipe:

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/shoes-off-saison

It's based off of dwarven stout's Saison Brett recipe.

My plan is to split the batch into 2 carboys - both with lacto and 3724, one with Brett, and one without. Here's my thought process: I'll make a big lacto starter, brew the wort, pitch the lacto by itself and let it sit for a day or two before adding the 3724. Meanwhile I'll make a Brett starter. Then, once the 3724 has done it's thing, I'll add in the Brett to half the batch and let it finish out.

This should (hopefully) make a funky saison that has a slight tartness, kind of like Hill Farmstead saisons (though I'm not anticipating this to be anywhere near as delicious as those!). I have two reasons for splitting the batch: one is for the sake of experiment, and the other is so that I have a saison to drink while I wait for the Brett to finish. Plus, I figure since 3724 is known for stalling out I might as well throw in some Brett to make sure it finishes nice and dry.


My question is, what are your thoughts on this procedure? Is there any reason not to do it this way?

 

[motorneuron]

I'm a neophyte on actually making sour or brett beers, so what I'm about to say is just book learning. But won't the 35ish IBUs in your beer inhibit the lacto? Wild Brews says that past 8-10 IBUs, you start to inhibit lactobacillus.

You could consider using a sour mash (that is, let the lacto ferment your mash/wort before boiling) or sour malt to get acidity. Or maybe pediococcus is the trick. Or, again, I could just be totally wrong, and it's possible to use lactobacillus in a 35 IBU wort--I don't have any direct experience with it. Maybe it'll just be slower, or something, instead of not working at all.

 

[MaxSpang]

I'm a neophyte on actually making sour or brett beers, so what I'm about to say is just book learning. But won't the 35ish IBUs in your beer inhibit the lacto? Wild Brews says that past 8-10 IBUs, you start to inhibit lactobacillus.

You could consider using a sour mash (that is, let the lacto ferment your mash/wort before boiling) or sour malt to get acidity. Or maybe pediococcus is the trick. Or, again, I could just be totally wrong, and it's possible to use lactobacillus in a 35 IBU wort--I don't have any direct experience with it. Maybe it'll just be slower, or something, instead of not working at all.

Yeah, I'm anticipating that it'll be pretty subdued. I'm looking to sour the beer, just give it some refreshing tartness. My hope is that the Lacto will still produce some acid to contribute to that, even at 35ish IBUs.

 

[smokinghole]

Whats your source of lacto? At 35ibus I doubt anything from White Labs or Wyeast will do anything for you. You would need something much more hop tolerant. I did a lacto/brett saison back in Jan for myself but I used a lacto strain that I isolated using differential plates from a contaminated yeast culture that soured a 8% 35ibu dubbel I brewed. Anyhow the saison has a slight lactic twang, it's super dry and slightly funky. Try your plan but I am highly suspect that either main stream labs' lacto will do anything in 35ibu.

 

[metic]

You could try pitching dregs from some Jolly Pumpkin beers instead of a commercial strain of lactobacillus; I've found that they bring a pleasant sourness quite quickly, even in fairly hoppy beers. (Note that there is brett in these dregs too, so you might not want to pitch them in both carboys.)

 

[MaxSpang]

Whats your source of lacto? At 35ibus I doubt anything from White Labs or Wyeast will do anything for you. You would need something much more hop tolerant. I did a lacto/brett saison back in Jan for myself but I used a lacto strain that I isolated using differential plates from a contaminated yeast culture that soured a 8% 35ibu dubbel I brewed. Anyhow the saison has a slight lactic twang, it's super dry and slightly funky. Try your plan but I am highly suspect that either main stream labs' lacto will do anything in 35ibu.

It's probably going to be Wyeast Lacto. I really don't have any other way to get Lacto.

 

[motorneuron]

It depends on what you want to do. If you're up for an experiment, you can just try pitching the lacto and see what happens. But that might (it seems like) result in little to no souring @ 35 IBUs. You could also try a sour mash, dosing with food-grade lactic acid, or using sour/acidulated malt.

Or you could do something fancier, e.g. make the wort at very low IBUs, add the lacto, and then dose with both yeast and a strong hop tea several days later. You could also just dry hop it later on (though that won't achieve bitterness, obviously).