Thoughts/Advice on low conversion

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chaps

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Amber Ale Kit from GFHB done as a partial mash with some Sorghum Syrup\

I brewed up this kit today and got what I think is low conversion rate. According to brewers friend its 37 percent. I felt like I did a decent job of managing the various partial mash tasks. I did a 60 min mash at around 165F +/- 12F over the 60 min. I used 60ML of AMG-300L at the very beginning. The wort that came out looked pretty clear and a great amber shade of brown. Smelled good to. That being said I wanted to see what kind of numbers other GF brewers get. Also I don't get "Ending Kettle". The hell is that?



Screen Shot 2018-08-12 at 9.37.36 PM.png
 
check the enzyme details, 165 is way too high i think. Works better around 150.
 
Doing a step mash will GREATLY improve your efficiency. Most people here use a 168-170 with Termamyl and then a rest in the 150's with either diastase, SEBAmyl L, or AMG 300. I'm getting around 82% on my brews. Others are seeing as high as 90%.

I used AMG single infusion at 163 for a bit and also got pretty bad conversion. Termamyl does the heavy lifting imo.

Your grain crush will also have a significant impact.
 
Check out the recipes on Weyermann Malt website. You may find them interesting. Their floor malt is under modified and low in protein, it's available in some HBS's. Being under modified, the malt is rich in enzyme content.

Mashing at 165 denatures Alpha rapidly. Alpha may hang around for 10,15 minutes or so before the heat wipes it out. The highest temperature to use is 162F for no longer than 20, 25 minutes, after that Alpha is pretty much done in. A rest at 162F is not uncommon when a couple of lower temperature rest are used. Mashing temperatures 155F and higher produces a sweet tasting, low alcohol, beer because less glucose is released at high temperatures. For high alcohol beer use 150F. At 150F Alpha produces more glucose than non-fermenting, sweet tasting, sugar. To counteract thinning that occurs in the beer, boil some base malt.
During the brewing process Alpha denatured before saccharification was fully completed. The term is called starch carryover. When you brew use iodine to test for starch, in real dark beer it's tough to use. When the sample is blue/black starch is present, no color change, or colors ranging from yellow-orange, red, deep red to reddish-mahogany, no starch. The different colors mean something. We'll go there after you brew a few batches with all malt.

You have conversion a little bit mixed up which is easy to do because home brew literature mentions starch conversion. Conversion has little to do with starch. The correct term is mash conversion.
Beta amylase is responsible for conversion. The rest temperature is 140 to 145F. Beta stood not a chance at 165F, scratch conversion off. Beta converts glucose released by Alpha during saccharification into complex sugar during conversion, glucose is simple sugar. The sugar that is missing in the beer is maltose and maltotriose, di and tri-saccharides which yeast don't love as much as glucose but during second fermentation and throughout the aging cycle yeast learns to love complex sugar. Another type of conversion occurs during second fermentation. Since, yeast doesn't love complex sugar as much as it loves simple sugar but due to complex sugar being all that is left, yeast comes equipped with an enzyme. During second fermentation yeast absorbs complex sugar through the cell wall, the enzyme converts the sugar back into glucose, the glucose is expelled back through the cell wall and yeast uses it for fuel. Gravity reduces closer to expected FG during second fermentation. During the aging cycle the same thing happens to maltotriose and natural carbonation takes place. Many homebrew recipes skip the Beta rest.
Alpha is responsible for liquefaction, saccharification and dextrinization. Temperature range is 98.6F to denaturing, which is based on temperature and time. Higher temperature, less time. Dextrinization kicks in at 149F and continues up to the point when Alpha denatures but it slowly begins to occur at lower temperatures when complex starch called amylo-pectin is in solution.
Amylo-pectin is heat resistant starch and it slowly begins to "melt" at 169F. Crushing malt into flour will cause issues with starch carry over because it takes heat to rupture the starch. You will notice the starch in spent mash. It is the small, white, particles left over. It is the richest starch in the kernel and the types of sugar within it are A and B limit dextrin. They are tasteless, non-fermenting, types of sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. The finest Ale and Pils are produced from a dextrinous wort. Brewers producing fine Ale and Pils use the decoction method. When mash is boiled, amylo-pectin rapidly enters into solution and when the decoction is added back into the main mash dextrinization begins when Alpha liquefies the starch at 1-6 links in the chain. During dextrinization, saccharification is also taking place.
When a recipe calls for a single temperature, an hour rest, primary fermentation and sugar priming, the Beta rest was skipped or the guy that wrote the recipe knew something about the quality of the malt. Depending on the level of modification it is very possible that high modified, home brew malt may not contain Beta or the enzyme is so beat to death that it isn't powerful enough to cause conversion to fully occur. To help out a brewer and distiller each sack of malt comes with a spec sheet, believe it or not. Just about everything comes with some type of ingredient list and with malt it's the bunch of chemicals, acronyms and numbers listed on the sheet. The sheet exists because barley/malt are very inconsistent and since malt is inconsistent it is tested. The data from the tests are placed on the sheet. The sheet is used to determine whether the malt is suitable for producing Ale, Lager or better suited for producing grain alcohol. Depending on the modification level of the malt that you are purchasing it is very possible that enzymes will need to be added, that's why enzymes are produced.
A maltster is producing 8% protein, Marris Otter which is great because the lower percentage of protein the more starch, more sugar. Home brew malt is usually 12-16%. The problem with the Marris has to do with the modification which is listed as Kolbach and SNR on the sheet. High modified, home brew malt is usually 42-45 Kolbach. Marris is at the top. Brewers grade malt is under 40 Kolbach and 8 to 10 percent protein. The germination cycle is quite long which causes Alpha to expend a bunch of energy softening starch and releasing sugar during malting/germination. If the malt is used with adjuncts Alpha will not cause full saccharification of the adjunct starch. Enzymes will need to be added to produce Ale and Lager with Marris Otter. Marris otter, Golden Promise and Halcyon were originally intended to make whiskey with.If you are serious about brewing Ale and Lager at the least purchase De Clercks journals, they're about 175 bucks, new. Wulf's pre 1960 journals are about 1000 bucks for the pair.
 
Can you give me specifics on how you roll? Temp, time lengths, products used, other relevant info?

Doing a step mash will GREATLY improve your efficiency. Most people here use a 168-170 with Termamyl and then a rest in the 150's with either diastase, SEBAmyl L, or AMG 300. I'm getting around 82% on my brews. Others are seeing as high as 90%.

I used AMG single infusion at 163 for a bit and also got pretty bad conversion. Termamyl does the heavy lifting imo.

Your grain crush will also have a significant impact.
 
So unfortunately the internet (as usual) gives widely different info. GFHB says 163.4F whereas another website suggest a temp around 130F...

What has been your experience and results?

check the enzyme details, 165 is way too high i think. Works better around 150.
 
Can you give me specifics on how you roll? Temp, time lengths, products used, other relevant info?

Sure. Right now my typical mash looks like this...

130 - 20 mins
- Termamyl added before grain
(Some guys use 104° for this step)

170 - 15 mins
- good conversion during this rise and rest

152-158 75-90 mins
- add SEBAmyl L (or other)
- usually done conversion by min 75
- adjust this temp to desired fermentability

168 10 mins mash out

Enyme amounts:
Termamyl ~2 tbs/5 gallon batch
SEBAmyl L~1 tsp/5gallon batch

*Many people don't do the first or last step and still get great conversion.
 
Last edited:
How do you achieve the up and down temps? Do you BIAB? Have an electric kettle/mash tun?

I was a BIABer until I lost my bag (literally) and became an impromptu partial grain brewer. I made a ghetto zap zap. I don't think it's feasible to make the temperature go up. I could probably make it go down relatively easily. Just dump in some cold water, or wait cause it loses heat like its got a radiator attached to it.

Looking at the numbers after my first zap zap experience, I think I drop about 1° every five minutes. Doing a 90 minute mash means a drop of about 18° in temperature. Should I start at a higher temperature and end in the desired range, or start in the desired range and let it finish colder. And if I understand @Hopalong (which honestly he's on another level so I may have misunderstood) he suggested that high temp will destroy enzymes, I think he said above that 162 and higher was problematic.

Sure. Right now my typical mash looks like this...

130 - 20 mins
- Termamyl added before grain
(Some guys use 104° for this step)

170 - 15 mins
- good conversion during this rise and rest

152-158 75-90 mins
- add SEBAmyl L (or other)
- usually done conversion by min 75
- adjust this temp to desired fermentability

168 10 mins mash out

Enyme amounts:
Termamyl ~2 tbs/5 gallon batch
SEBAmyl L~1 tsp/5gallon batch

*Many people don't do the first or last step and still get great conversion.
 
If you are serious about brewing Ale and Lager at the least purchase De Clercks journals, they're about 175 bucks, new. Wulf's pre 1960 journals are about 1000 bucks for the pair.

Are these books? Am i reading that right? $1,000 for a pair of books?
 
Check out the recipes on Weyermann Malt website. You may find them interesting. Their floor malt is under modified and low in protein, it's available in some HBS's. Being under modified, the malt is rich in enzyme content.

Mashing at 165 denatures Alpha rapidly. Alpha may hang around for 10,15 minutes or so before the heat wipes it out. The highest temperature to use is 162F for no longer than 20, 25 minutes, after that Alpha is pretty much done in. A rest at 162F is not uncommon when a couple of lower temperature rest are used. Mashing temperatures 155F and higher produces a sweet tasting, low alcohol, beer because less glucose is released at high temperatures. For high alcohol beer use 150F. At 150F Alpha produces more glucose than non-fermenting, sweet tasting, sugar. To counteract thinning that occurs in the beer, boil some base malt.
During the brewing process Alpha denatured before saccharification was fully completed. The term is called starch carryover. When you brew use iodine to test for starch, in real dark beer it's tough to use. When the sample is blue/black starch is present, no color change, or colors ranging from yellow-orange, red, deep red to reddish-mahogany, no starch. The different colors mean something. We'll go there after you brew a few batches with all malt.

You have conversion a little bit mixed up which is easy to do because home brew literature mentions starch conversion. Conversion has little to do with starch. The correct term is mash conversion.
Beta amylase is responsible for conversion. The rest temperature is 140 to 145F. Beta stood not a chance at 165F, scratch conversion off. Beta converts glucose released by Alpha during saccharification into complex sugar during conversion, glucose is simple sugar. The sugar that is missing in the beer is maltose and maltotriose, di and tri-saccharides which yeast don't love as much as glucose but during second fermentation and throughout the aging cycle yeast learns to love complex sugar. Another type of conversion occurs during second fermentation. Since, yeast doesn't love complex sugar as much as it loves simple sugar but due to complex sugar being all that is left, yeast comes equipped with an enzyme. During second fermentation yeast absorbs complex sugar through the cell wall, the enzyme converts the sugar back into glucose, the glucose is expelled back through the cell wall and yeast uses it for fuel. Gravity reduces closer to expected FG during second fermentation. During the aging cycle the same thing happens to maltotriose and natural carbonation takes place. Many homebrew recipes skip the Beta rest.
Alpha is responsible for liquefaction, saccharification and dextrinization. Temperature range is 98.6F to denaturing, which is based on temperature and time. Higher temperature, less time. Dextrinization kicks in at 149F and continues up to the point when Alpha denatures but it slowly begins to occur at lower temperatures when complex starch called amylo-pectin is in solution.
Amylo-pectin is heat resistant starch and it slowly begins to "melt" at 169F. Crushing malt into flour will cause issues with starch carry over because it takes heat to rupture the starch. You will notice the starch in spent mash. It is the small, white, particles left over. It is the richest starch in the kernel and the types of sugar within it are A and B limit dextrin. They are tasteless, non-fermenting, types of sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. The finest Ale and Pils are produced from a dextrinous wort. Brewers producing fine Ale and Pils use the decoction method. When mash is boiled, amylo-pectin rapidly enters into solution and when the decoction is added back into the main mash dextrinization begins when Alpha liquefies the starch at 1-6 links in the chain. During dextrinization, saccharification is also taking place.
When a recipe calls for a single temperature, an hour rest, primary fermentation and sugar priming, the Beta rest was skipped or the guy that wrote the recipe knew something about the quality of the malt. Depending on the level of modification it is very possible that high modified, home brew malt may not contain Beta or the enzyme is so beat to death that it isn't powerful enough to cause conversion to fully occur. To help out a brewer and distiller each sack of malt comes with a spec sheet, believe it or not. Just about everything comes with some type of ingredient list and with malt it's the bunch of chemicals, acronyms and numbers listed on the sheet. The sheet exists because barley/malt are very inconsistent and since malt is inconsistent it is tested. The data from the tests are placed on the sheet. The sheet is used to determine whether the malt is suitable for producing Ale, Lager or better suited for producing grain alcohol. Depending on the modification level of the malt that you are purchasing it is very possible that enzymes will need to be added, that's why enzymes are produced.
A maltster is producing 8% protein, Marris Otter which is great because the lower percentage of protein the more starch, more sugar. Home brew malt is usually 12-16%. The problem with the Marris has to do with the modification which is listed as Kolbach and SNR on the sheet. High modified, home brew malt is usually 42-45 Kolbach. Marris is at the top. Brewers grade malt is under 40 Kolbach and 8 to 10 percent protein. The germination cycle is quite long which causes Alpha to expend a bunch of energy softening starch and releasing sugar during malting/germination. If the malt is used with adjuncts Alpha will not cause full saccharification of the adjunct starch. Enzymes will need to be added to produce Ale and Lager with Marris Otter. Marris otter, Golden Promise and Halcyon were originally intended to make whiskey with.If you are serious about brewing Ale and Lager at the least purchase De Clercks journals, they're about 175 bucks, new. Wulf's pre 1960 journals are about 1000 bucks for the pair.
no more coffee for you lad.
 
Sure. Right now my typical mash looks like this...

130 - 20 mins
- Termamyl added before grain
(Some guys use 104° for this step)

170 - 15 mins
- good conversion during this rise and rest

152-158 75-90 mins
- add SEBAmyl L (or other)
- usually done conversion by min 75
- adjust this temp to desired fermentability

168 10 mins mash out

Enyme amounts:
Termamyl ~2 tbs/5 gallon batch
SEBAmyl L~1 tsp/5gallon batch

*Many people don't do the first or last step and still get great conversion.

So the above method takes 120-135 minutes?

If you did a side by side comparison, using the above method and a standard single infusion 60 minute mash and batch sparge, (adjusting the grain so the gravity was the same), would the flavor difference in the finished beer be noticeable?
I'm always ready to try something new for better beer, but doubling my mash time for the sole purpose of using less grain isn't worth it to me.

A Brulosophy "Exbeeriment" using the single infusion and step mash method (no added enzyme)
produced a beer that was basically the same:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/14/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-hochkurz-step-mash-exbeeriment-results/
 
How do you achieve the up and down temps? Do you BIAB? Have an electric kettle/mash tun?

I was a BIABer until I lost my bag (literally) and became an impromptu partial grain brewer. I made a ghetto zap zap. I don't think it's feasible to make the temperature go up. I could probably make it go down relatively easily. Just dump in some cold water, or wait cause it loses heat like its got a radiator attached to it.

Looking at the numbers after my first zap zap experience, I think I drop about 1° every five minutes. Doing a 90 minute mash means a drop of about 18° in temperature. Should I start at a higher temperature and end in the desired range, or start in the desired range and let it finish colder. And if I understand @Hopalong (which honestly he's on another level so I may have misunderstood) he suggested that high temp will destroy enzymes, I think he said above that 162 and higher was problematic.

I bought a Grainfather due to the long reats and temp changes. Hiwever, there are plenty of guys that use a cooler as well. @glutarded-chris has detailed his process in a number of threads. He mashes in at the high rest 170ish and then adds chilled water for the 150's rest. Works well for him.
 
So the above method takes 120-135 minutes?

If you did a side by side comparison, using the above method and a standard single infusion 60 minute mash and batch sparge, (adjusting the grain so the gravity was the same), would the flavor difference in the finished beer be noticeable?
I'm always ready to try something new for better beer, but doubling my mash time for the sole purpose of using less grain isn't worth it to me.

A Brulosophy "Exbeeriment" using the single infusion and step mash method (no added enzyme)
produced a beer that was basically the same:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/14/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-hochkurz-step-mash-exbeeriment-results/

I haven't done a side by side, so I can't comment. But, gluten free grains are pretty damn pricey. I have a Grainfather, so it's not a big deal for me. I brewed a milk stout yesterday . During that time, I played with the kids in the back yard, cleaned up around the house, made dinner, etc. Ezpz.
 
My method is very similar to skleice's, as I use a Grainfather as well. It makes it very easy to move temps up and down during mashing. I have been getting around 85% efficiency using these steps:

  • Mash in at 105F, add 2 tbsp Termamyl
  • Hold for 30 min at 105F
  • Raise to 180F, hold for 15 min
  • Lower to 150F, add 2 tsp AMG-300L
  • Hold for 2 hr at 150F
  • Sparge with 168F
  • Boil
Yes it is long, but I mill my grain and collect my mash water the night before so I can start mashing immediately in the morning. There's plenty of downtime to prepare the rest of the equipment.

One last thing, you want a somewhat thick mash for the enzymes to be effective. I don't know the qt/lb ratio for cooler mash tuns, but with the Grainfather I have been using 1.5qt/lb. It's a little different because there is some dead space below the grain and on the sides. For coolers, it may be 1qt/lb. Look for glutarded-chris's posts.
 
For coolers, it may be 1qt/lb. Look for glutarded-chris's posts.

I’m using g-Chris method of 170 with termamyl and 150 with sebamyl bal 100 in a cooler and getting 85%. I start my mash with a 1.25 ratio. Typically, around 2 qts of 50-ish degree water brings me down to 150 for the second rest, which gives me a final ratio just shy of 1.50.
 
So both @TahoePowderHound and @JMath mentioned having thicker mashed. I have been using 2 quarts or more per pound of grain and having a soupy kind of mash rather than an oatmeal consistency that using less water gives me. I just kind of assumed that More water would give the grains more chance to turn into starches. Is my thinking way off?
 
ive never had any problems getting good efficiency from golden promise with normal to short mashes without added enzymes... is there something im missing here?
 
So both @TahoePowderHound and @JMath mentioned having thicker mashed. I have been using 2 quarts or more per pound of grain and having a soupy kind of mash rather than an oatmeal consistency that using less water gives me. I just kind of assumed that More water would give the grains more chance to turn into starches. Is my thinking way off?

Yes, you want a thicker mash fir the enzymes to be effective. GFHB has blog posts about this topic.

On the Grainfather the water calcs give you 1.75qt/lb minus the dead space, leaving you at 1.5qt/lb.
 
On the Grainfather the water calcs give you 1.75qt/lb minus the dead space, leaving you at 1.5qt/lb.


What do you mean minus the dead space? Wouldn’t you want to add a little extra water since some of it will be laying at the bottom?
 
What do you mean minus the dead space? Wouldn’t you want to add a little extra water since some of it will be laying at the bottom?

It works out to be 1.5qt/lb which is good for GF. Thinner mash does not seem to be effective. You have to pay attention thought. Last week I brewed with 20% roasted buckwheat and it soaked up the water like crazy. I ended up adding a whole gallon of water to thr mash and still needed all of my predicted sparge water. Hit my my volumes and OG tho!
 
How long do you do each stop?

I’m using g-Chris method of 170 with termamyl and 150 with sebamyl bal 100 in a cooler and getting 85%. I start my mash with a 1.25 ratio. Typically, around 2 qts of 50-ish degree water brings me down to 150 for the second rest, which gives me a final ratio just shy of 1.50.
 
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