Think rationally, or disobey SWMBO?..

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dawn_kiebawls

dawn_kiebawls

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TL;DR

Hey guys and gals, I find myself in an interestingly uncomfortable situation. Similar to when she says 'no, just go out with your friends...its OK!'...

So, I have been preparing for my homebrewing career for a while now by collecting bottles. I have accumulated ~ 120-150 bottles over several years but we live in a small, cramped 1 bed room apartment with limited storage space (the limitation of storage space is, indeed my fault due to these bottles. After all, if it weren't for our coat closet we would have NOwhere to store our holiday decorations).

The other afternoon SWMBO walks in carrying several bags of ceramic ghosts, skulls, jak-o-lanterns, plastic skeletons and other various junk that will soon overflow the currently bulging closet of useless s**t, and I ask if I should go buy some 're-inforced hinges to hold that load'.

Long story short, we exchange witty remarks and I volunteer to throw out all but 50 (one batch) of bottles so long as I get to build a kegerator and have it in the corner of our living room. She AGREED!

Now...I am new to this obsession and wanting to get better. But, at this point I am only doing Belgians because I am able to turn the heat up, but, do not have a 'fermentation chamber' enabling me to brew standard Ales. So, should I get rid of my bottles and start kegging, or should I convert a mini fridge into a chamber in order to be able to ferment Ales (IPAs, pales, stouts, bitters...you get the idea, better than I do!)

I guess what I am asking, is..do I push my own progress to better my beers by being able to precisely control my fermentation temps, or do I do what SWMBO wants and build a kegerator? I never knew brewing could be so complicated!
 
this is tough... personally I say build the keezer because you can still easily use it as a fermentation chamber too... but temp control fermentation is more important IMHO than kegging although I lothe bottling and almost never do it anymore...
 
You also don't have to make a full-blown kegerator at first. You could just use the kegerator-sized fridge to store the keg and serve via a picnic spout. I've been doing that for years with up to 4 kegs in an upright freezer (with a thermostat).
I've only recently bought a 7 cu ft. chest freezer that will become my serving station.
 
One thought: are you going to be in this apartment forever, or is there a move to a larger place in the foreseeable future? If that's possible, ask yourself what you think you'll wish you'd done then--and do it now.

A ferm chamber is, IMO, more important at this point. Many times you'll read on HBT that fermentation temperature control is one of the biggest leaps forward new brewers can do. I'd concur with that. If it's large enough, you may be able to keep a keg in there, esp if it's a shorter/stubbier keg like a pinlock or the ball-lock original Torpedo keg. If you can do that, you can serve from a picnic tap.

Another option is to use the kegerator for both things; ferment, keg, then keep the keg in there. When the keg kicks, brew another. I don't particularly like that option because that means there will be times you have no beer period--unless you bottle from the kegerator tap (which I do). You can also bottle from a keg directly using a poor-man's beer gun. The point is you could bottle the last couple gallons from the kegerator to keep a supply of beer while you ferment another.

If you can find a dorm-style refrigerator on Craigslist you might get lucky at a low price. I bought one this summer for $60. It's a 4.4-cu ft refrigerator and just fits a fermenter in there without tearing anything out. I could have removed the plastic molded parts for shelving in the door if necessary, but I lucked out on it. I have a link below showing my setup. Scroll down to see the pics of the little one. I wouldn't bend down the freezer to make room for an airlock, so that's why you see me using a stopper connected to some silicone tubing I ran through the the top of the refrigerator to an airlock jar setup. BTW, if I had to do it over again, I'd do the exact same thing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=635548

So--my opinion is a ferm chamber. Not because a kegerator isn't cool--it is. But because you can greatly expand your repertoire of beers that you brew. And if you can make a kegerator serve both purposes... :)

***********

On the other hand, a kegerator will cost more money--and if you have "permission" to get one, that's hard to ignore. Don't skimp there, you'll regret it later.
 
I'm not seeing the problem.
A kegerator IS a fermentation chamber. Brew, ferment in the kegerator then use it to serve beer. Youll have a week of down time without beer while a batch ferments but to be able to keg, ferment the type of beer you want AND keep the wife happy is a no brainer...Not to mention bottle beer need to carb for weeks while kegging will get you drinking in 24 hours so the down time might actually be less than bottling
 
If you go with the kegerator and a batch of bottles, you could have 2 beers available. Use the kegerator to ferment batch 1. Bottle it. Brew batch 2 and keg it. Once you have enough empty bottles to kick the keg, put them in the bottles and brew again to put it in the keg. If the kegerator is big enough for 2 kegs, you could mix a Belgian in there and keg that too.

Or....convert 2 mini fridges, one for a kegerator and one for fementation. Put them next to each other, make a nice one piece wooden top to put on both and wala.
 
I think, within reason, fermentation temperature is over rated as a factor, but clearly I am in the minority. Keg fridge and mini fridge seems like a decent choice for you or as jonny said use keg fridge/freezer for both.
 
You could always use a swamp cooler to maintain fermentation temps. I did that in the beginning but it's a PITA so i bought a 5cft chest freezer.
I've been brewing for 3 years and i HATE bottling. It's the worst part of the brewing experience.

I have decided to start the kegging process. I'm going to obtain another chest freezer and start with 1 picnic tap and 1 keg. This will probably last a year then once my man cave is built i'll finish the keezer and upgrade to two taps.
 
If I was in your situation, here's what I would do:
Put your relationships ahead of any other thing in your life, you'll be glad you did.
But regarding getting started in brewing without much room....
Get a small (5.5 cu ft) chest freezer and a temp control unit, It will fit in the corner nicely.
Since your short on space, I'd ferment in a keg, which will fit perfectly down in the well of the freezer. Figure on doing 4 gallon batches, so you can leave head space in the keg. Get 2 used kegs, Ferment in one, then rack it to the other for serving. You can store both of them in the freezer, again saving space. For serving, use a picnic tap like someone else said, I've been doing it that way for a while. Use the same freezer for fermenting and serving.
150 bottles is like 6 cases? Chuck out all but two cases, that will free up room in the closet for your G/F's decorations and other stuff. You may find that you only need one case of bottles, which will be all the better.
When the keg gets low, bottle the beer from the keg and you can then ferment another brew.
You can store your brew kettle and other brewing gear in the freezer/ferm chamber, so that won't take up any space in your apt.
When you move to a bigger place you can still use the freezer as a fermentation chamber or for serving or actually use it as a freezer, or sell it.
If you have the money and space in the kitchen fridge, you can get 1.75 gal kegs for about $75. To save space in the fridge you can top them up with Co2 every few days, you don't need to keep the tank connected all the time.
A small freezer/control unit will be about $300 or less. A kettle, BIAB bag, hydrometer, siphon, bottle capper, 2 kegs (used), Co2 tank and regulator will be about another $300. A small scale to weigh the hops is about $20-25 and is well worth the money, you can also weigh out chemicals for for your brewing water when you get tom that point.
You can find stuff used, but the small freezers are pretty cheap brand new.
You'll make better beer with fermentation temp control and will be way happier mostly kegging instead of bottling.
 
If I was in Your situation, I'd be getting a small fermentation fridge, do 1 gallon batches and bottle them, getting better use of your space and more different batches.

then when space permits, go all out ;D
 
If I lived in a small, cramped 1 bedroom apartment, I would look to a lot of other things first before I dropped money on a kegerator. If you only plan on having 1-2 beers on tap, then you might be able to reduce space, but I know for me at least, adding my two-tap kegerator increased the number of beers I had in stock by two. My quantity of bottled beers (and now wine too) has stayed the same or grown. If I tried to sell my wife on getting a keezer as a space-saving solution, she would laugh in my face.
 
brew703 said:
You could always use a swamp cooler to maintain fermentation temps. I did that in the beginning but it's a PITA so i bought a 5cft chest freezer.
Click to expand...

I lasted 2 days with a swamp cooler before I found a chest freezer used. Had it converted the next day.
 
What about one of those cool bags? That way you can have the kegerator and get your fermentation temps under control to some degree. They don't take up much space when not fermenting as well. Can be folded up and put in the closet. Wait maybe not in the closet...
 
One room apt, eh? I can't see putting a dorm fridge or small chest freezer either one. If you have room for the small freezer, I second the notion of ferment chamber when making, keg cooler when PRIMARY FERMENTATION IS OVER AFTER A WEEK. No need to temp control past the main exotherm. While using it as ferm chamber, stick two kegs in a standard cooler with a little water and frozen ice packs -- you only need to keep the bottom cool where the dip tube is.
 
brew small batches

a 2.5 gallon mini-brew bucket and cannonball kegs are the way to go.

with this set up, you can
1) fit two or three kegs in a 4.3 CF fridge
2) ferment in a small space (cardboard box with a 2-liter bottle of ice to help reduce temp will actually work)
3) throw out all the bottles save for enough to capture what does not fit in the 1.75 gallon keg.
4) bring a keg to a party and not lug around a 5-gallon cylinder

Lots of other options.

Investigate that for logistics
 
jlinz said:
What about one of those cool bags? That way you can have the kegerator and get your fermentation temps under control to some degree. They don't take up much space when not fermenting as well. Can be folded up and put in the closet. Wait maybe not in the closet...
Click to expand...

I second this suggestion. A fellow homebrew club member who is similarly space-challenged uses one of these and makes good beer with it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008EKD7CQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
applescrap said:
I think, within reason, fermentation temperature is over rated as a factor, but clearly I am in the minority. Keg fridge and mini fridge seems like a decent choice for you or as jonny said use keg fridge/freezer for both.
Click to expand...

All depends on beer styles..do you make lagers? Some people like the op, brew what they can get away with. Plus if you have a basement you have better conditions then say a texas apartment.
 
I could seriously be a happy brewer without a ferm. chamber. Brewing Belgians, Sours, and Farmhouse stuff could keep me occupied for a lifetime. As long as you aren't wanting to do specific styles that require lower temps I would go the keg route. You actually often can come up with cooler stuff by brewing with limitations--- For example you cant get IPA temps but really want a hoppy beer, you could play with a Farmhouse IPA style and possibly brew something fantastic that you never even would have thought to try....
Plus kegging kicks ass. Less cleaning, bottle storing, long filling sessions. Nothing like pouring a draft of homebrew-- just my opinion.

I'm assuming your ambient temps are stable, just a little on the warmer side. If your temps are not stable and you are losing or gaining more then a few degrees in a day, I would get some sort of temp control going on.
 
Space and efficiency based on means is a situation we all have to consider. There are so many different equipment options available now brewers didn't have a decade ago.
I've defied SWMBO and bought items piecemeal to stow them away for later. My collection of bottles takes space but the upgrade solving that problem costs money. Kegging will become an eventuality, but in the meantime, getting and configuring a ferm chamber that can do multiple tasks is important, too. There are many options. Sometimes the best options aren't the most expensive but the ones that work with the least conflict in living arrangements.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
You also don't have to make a full-blown kegerator at first. You could just use the kegerator-sized fridge to store the keg and serve via a picnic spout. I've been doing that for years with up to 4 kegs in an upright freezer (with a thermostat).
Click to expand...

100% what he said. (Except, I like clear beer when appropriate for the style. I would go with a freezer rather than fridge so you can cold crash.)

Before I was able to control temps, my wife saw this as a silly hobby. She was nice about it, bud didn't get it. After she tried the beers that came from proper fermentation temps and cold crashing, she's been a million times more supportive. In fact, my keezer never happened because she talked me into a 3 tap commercial kegerator.
 
Imo if you want to brew 5 or 10 gallon batches in your apartment and have a keezer and that brings you joy then go for it. Thats awesome. Follow your passions, clearly swmbo gets you, otherwise she wouldnt have wanted her closet back at the price of a keezer. If you get a fridge/freezer the extra freezer space could be nice to have to. I dont think you should be limited to one gallon batches. The advice on a small corner keezer seems solid. If you dont want to keg, I would bottle in one or 2 liter pet bottles to save room, and find a cool spot and brew lagers and whatever I wanted. A chill ferment bag of some kind and 2 liter bottles would free up a lot of space and you could condition easily in your fridge. Need more space? Maybe build a sweet loft to drink your beer in.
 
keezer all day long. if you're mainly brewing standard ales then it's only the first 2-3 days that are vital to control temp. after that take it out the keezer and let it rise to finish off fully. you can serve your kegs on a picnictap in that time, first day it'll still be cold, frozen glasses on the second..
 
Thanks for all the responses and help, guys! I've decided that with SWMBO eager for me to get all that glass out (and I can't help but agree that it is a PITA), my birthday is just a couple weeks away and the holidays right around the corner, I'm going with a small chest freezer/temp control unit to use as a ferm chamber until I acquire all the other pieces needed to convert it to a serving station.

hedgie57 said:
Depends on how mush cash you want to put out.You will need kegs,faucets,shanks,beer line, co2 tank, regulator,manifold ,and temperature regulator. You can always convert a fermentation chamber to a keezer later when funds are available.
Click to expand...

This is almost exactly what I will be doing, thanks!

Jtk78 said:
If you go with the kegerator and a batch of bottles, you could have 2 beers available. Use the kegerator to ferment batch 1. Bottle it. Brew batch 2 and keg it. Once you have enough empty bottles to kick the keg, put them in the bottles and brew again to put it in the keg. If the kegerator is big enough for 2 kegs, you could mix a Belgian in there and keg that too.

Or....convert 2 mini fridges, one for a kegerator and one for fementation. Put them next to each other, make a nice one piece wooden top to put on both and wala.
Click to expand...

2 minis won't be able to happen right now, but I do like your idea a lot about keg one, bottle one and mix in some Belgians. I'm sure that will likely happen no matter what I go with, mini fridge or chest freezer!

Hoppy2bmerry said:
When a spouse wants to be supportive of the hobby let them, even if it might just be a ploy to get the closet back. ;)
http://www.northernbrewer.com/vessi-fermentor-and-dispenser
Click to expand...

I agree, seeing her smile is my motivation to do everything I do for us. However, if I rolled a $2,000 kegerator through the door we would 100% be divorced by thanksgiving!

mongoose33 said:
One thought: are you going to be in this apartment forever, or is there a move to a larger place in the foreseeable future? If that's possible, ask yourself what you think you'll wish you'd done then--and do it now.
Click to expand...

This is most definitely not where we will be even a year from now. Our lease is over in July and at that point we will be looking for our first house :ban: Thanks for the insight on 'do now what you will want in the future', that was quite helpful! I'll get a small chest freezer and use it as a ferm chamber soon and serve via picnic taps for a while.

madscientist451 said:
If I was in your situation, here's what I would do:
Put your relationships ahead of any other thing in your life, you'll be glad you did.
But regarding getting started in brewing without much room....
Get a small (5.5 cu ft) chest freezer and a temp control unit, It will fit in the corner nicely.
Since your short on space, I'd ferment in a keg, which will fit perfectly down in the well of the freezer. Figure on doing 4 gallon batches, so you can leave head space in the keg. Get 2 used kegs, Ferment in one, then rack it to the other for serving. You can store both of them in the freezer, again saving space. For serving, use a picnic tap like someone else said, I've been doing it that way for a while. Use the same freezer for fermenting and serving.
Click to expand...

She always comes first, and she knows it (too well, sometimes...) :) But I am going to do basically exactly what you recommended. I'll have to do some research on how to run primary in a keg, but thats the solution I'm going with. Thanks!

Kharnynb said:
If I was in Your situation, I'd be getting a small fermentation fridge, do 1 gallon batches and bottle them, getting better use of your space and more different batches.

then when space permits, go all out ;D
Click to expand...

Small batches won't work for me due to household consumption rate. It would go from 'we don't have any storage space' to 'you spend literally every free minute brewing!' But, once space allows you better believe I'm going all out :D

radwizard said:
I could seriously be a happy brewer without a ferm. chamber. Brewing Belgians, Sours, and Farmhouse stuff could keep me occupied for a lifetime. As long as you aren't wanting to do specific styles that require lower temps I would go the keg route. You actually often can come up with cooler stuff by brewing with limitations--- For example you cant get IPA temps but really want a hoppy beer, you could play with a Farmhouse IPA style and possibly brew something fantastic that you never even would have thought to try....
Plus kegging kicks ass. Less cleaning, bottle storing, long filling sessions. Nothing like pouring a draft of homebrew-- just my opinion.

I'm assuming your ambient temps are stable, just a little on the warmer side. If your temps are not stable and you are losing or gaining more then a few degrees in a day, I would get some sort of temp control going on.
Click to expand...

Temps are steady and have worked quite well for Belgians lately. I like your ideas of kind of bending the guideline rules to come up with some unique brews! That will definitely still be happening, but, SWMBO basically will only drink stouts and porters so I'd like to be able to have something on hand for her....all though a dark Belgian Strong...hmmmm....you might be on to something here! :mug:

Dcpcooks said:
She's a keeper get a keezer
Click to expand...
She is definitely a keeper, even though she buys a bunch of junk and HATES hops (we're working on this..therapy seems to be helping lol ;) ) KEEZER IT IS!



Thanks again for all the insight, thoughts and opinions on this guys, I appreciate it!

One question I do have that I believe was briefly mentioned. If I'm using it as a ferm chamber AND a keezer at the same time, but primary is running at, say 65F, doesn't that mean the beer I'm serving will come out at 65F as well? How do people combat that? Just run it at 65F for a few days, pull it out and allow to free rise/finish up, then lower the temp for the serving keg again? Thanks!
 
You can do that (pull it out after the initial active ferm is finished), but at some point this could be a headache. You're gonna end up with more finished beer in your keezer then you think (seems most ppl wish they would of bought a bigger keezer). You can pull out beer and carboys to make this work for the occasional stout or porter, but doing this as a main practice seems pretty tough to schedule.

Keg conditioning instead of force carbing could help you with your scheduling.
If you are carbing on gas you will be calculating for co2 volumes based on time and temp in the keezer which could be a pain if you are changing the temp often.

Long story short. Sometimes you may want to use your keezer as a ferm area, if so do some careful planning and go for it, but if you dont need to do it at all, then don't. That's what I'd recommend...
 
dawn_kiebawls said:
One question I do have that I believe was briefly mentioned. If I'm using it as a ferm chamber AND a keezer at the same time, but primary is running at, say 65F, doesn't that mean the beer I'm serving will come out at 65F as well? How do people combat that? Just run it at 65F for a few days, pull it out and allow to free rise/finish up, then lower the temp for the serving keg again? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Since your low on space, you'll have to make some compromises.
Your not going to ferment and serve at the same time.
Brew a beer, transfer to the serving keg, lower the temp to serve the beer.
When its gone, brew some more and repeat the process. So you'll have gaps in your beer pipeline. My original post covered some of that, either bottle off the keg or get 1.75 gal kegs and use your regular 'fridge for serving. Good luck! :mug:
 
hedgie57 said:
Depends on how mush cash you want to put out.You will need kegs,faucets,shanks,beer line, co2 tank, regulator,manifold ,and temperature regulator. You can always convert a fermentation chamber to a keezer later when funds are available.
Click to expand...



You don’t NEED a manifold or faucets or shanks. You need a chest freezer and a temp controller. Then it can be dual purpose like mine. I personally dont like faucets because you have to clean them regularly because they stick out and arent cold so they may grow bacteria in them. I use a picnic tap in my keezer i just have to open it up fill a glass and close it back. Then theres no “building” also, you just plug it up, and set the desired temp and you’re ready to ferment then when its ready you just change the temp to cold crash and then you keg and you are good. Theres no collar to build no drilling no possible lines bursted
 
My link to the Vessie system was for reference... As long as you spend less than 2k and can store more than one keg you'll be a rockstar, or more of a rockstar as the case may be. :rockin:
 
madscientist451 said:
Your not going to ferment and serve at the same time.
Click to expand...

A lot of British brewers finish fermentation at low - well cellar - temperatures, 55F-ish, in effect merging into the conditioning phase. If you have multiple vessels, that would allow you to ferment and serve at the same time at the same temperature, you just need to be a bit British about these things...
 
Thanks, NB I am planning on trying that technique with some clones like Black Sheep Riggwelter and Timothy Taylor Landlord; Can you suggest any other similar brews where the clone recipe is available? I was going to ferment in the keg and then upend the keg to simulate their yeast rousing technique and then chill to about 55 after 3-4 days and keg condition.
 
dawn_kiebawls said:
This is most definitely not where we will be even a year from now. Our lease is over in July and at that point we will be looking for our first house :ban: Thanks for the insight on 'do now what you will want in the future', that was quite helpful! I'll get a small chest freezer and use it as a ferm chamber soon and serve via picnic taps for a while.
Click to expand...

You might want to begin looking a few months before your lease expires. :)

March or early April wouldn't be too soon. Once you find one, there's probably six weeks or so until closing, and you'll probably want a little time to work on it (paint, maybe some other changes) before you move in.
 
madscientist451 said:
Thanks, NB I am planning on trying that technique with some clones like Black Sheep Riggwelter and Timothy Taylor Landlord; Can you suggest any other similar brews where the clone recipe is available? I was going to ferment in the keg and then upend the keg to simulate their yeast rousing technique and then chill to about 55 after 3-4 days and keg condition.
Click to expand...

Well you can find clones for most of the big British commercial beers, and it's a fairly generally applicable technique, maybe with a short pause at 60-63F on the way down. Since British pubs serve customers from a cask with live yeast at 54-57F, there's no real distinction between fermentation, conditioning and serving like you get with dead beer, it's just one continuum.

Pedigree is an obvious one where they tail off the fermentation like that, the official Marston temperature schedule is kicking round the internet.
 

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