The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[newuser12345]

CO2 levels in beer are a critical factor in flavor. I couldn't imagine being ok with not knowing or being able to accurately control your levels.

 

[MSK_Chess]

CO2 levels in beer are a critical factor in flavor. I couldn't imagine being ok with not knowing or being able to accurately control your levels.

Some people are simply a little more cavalier than others. Now you just trollin!

 

[newuser12345]

No troll, just the thought of having the entire brew process done and then to be cavalier about that just seems crazy to me. To each their own.

 

[chordwizard]

I'm looking to implement some of the steps to lower oxygen in my brewing and thinking about the mash cap. I have a rectangular cooler with a bag, what are some of the suggestions for capping? Things to use, not to use, avoid? For my brew tomorrow I'm limited to what I have on hand like tin foil, glass, wood (if any of those are recommended)... but also thinking about what I can look use for future brews.
Thank you!

 

[schematix]

Things that float are a must. Inert materials are better.

Stainless cake pans (or maybe cookie sheets in your case) are probably the best. They usually float due to the sides being deep enough.

Plastic wrap kinda works. So does foil. Both make a mess though. Glass typically won’t float (maybe 13x9 or 15x10 Pyrex would though??). Wood will probably sink.

Whatever you choose, I’d highly recommend doing a wet test to make sure you don’t have a brew day surprise.

 

[aeviaanah]

How about silicone?

 

[schematix]

Doesn’t float unfortunately.

 

[doug293cz]

Doesn’t float unfortunately.

It's also a terrible oxygen barrier. Highest oxygen permeability of any common polymer.

Brew on

 

[MSK_Chess]

It's also a terrible oxygen barrier. Highest oxygen permeability of any common polymer.

Brew on

really? I have a silicon cap on my glass carboy, its bright orange. You think I should get something else?

 

[schematix]

really? I have a silicon cap on my glass carboy, its bright orange. You think I should get something else?

Yes those are terrible.

http://www.mocon.com/assets/documents/PPS_Article_highq.pdf

On a related subject, has anyone found a better low-ox material for hoses than silicone?

 

[Big Monk]

Yes those are terrible.

http://www.mocon.com/assets/documents/PPS_Article_highq.pdf

On a related subject, has anyone found a better low-ox material for hoses than silicone?

Given the time spent using them on a brewday I’m not sure I’d concern myself with alternative tubing material. If I did, it would be the very last thing to obsess about.

SS tubing and compression fittings does the trick.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Yes those are terrible.

http://www.mocon.com/assets/documents/PPS_Article_highq.pdf

On a related subject, has anyone found a better low-ox material for hoses than silicone?

My goodness! PET does really well and mine the Plastisol Topper Polyvinyl Chloride – PVC one not so well. I thought it was made of silicon. Silicone Rubber (dimethylsilicone) is like a sieve! Tis a great pity cause i like glass carboy, it fits in my fridge nicely. I cannot use Corny kegs as they don't fit and a fermentasuarus (PET) wouldn't fit either. I thought of using what we in the UK call a pressure barrel, its made of food grade plastic and designed to withstand a fair amount of pressure, but what kind of plastic I am not sure. I have a sneaking suspicion it might be High Density Polyethylene – HDPE which is even worse!

 

[jwalk4]

I'm a propane brewer, but does anyone use a heat stick to cut down on pre-boil times?

If Yes, do you find it is worth the investment?

 

[aeviaanah]

Is it recommended to purge manifolds/tubing of air prior to transferring water or wort from vessel to vessel?

 

[doug293cz]

Is it recommended to purge manifolds/tubing of air prior to transferring water or wort from vessel to vessel?

Yes. There's enough O2 in tubing and manifolds to undo all the effort you put in keeping O2 out.

Brew on

 

[aeviaanah]

Yes. There's enough O2 in tubing and manifolds to undo all the effort you put in keeping O2 out.



Brew on

Man this poses some significant design changes for my system. Back to the drawing board!

 

[doug293cz]

I may have been a little unclear with my previous response. Gas manifolds and tubing are reasonably free of O2 (the level should be close to that of the source CO2.) Liquid tubing, and any associated plumbing, used to transfer the beer are what you have to worry about.

For example, when I push the StarSan out of a keg with CO2, I keep the liquid tube under the surface of the catch bucket. I then put a thumb/finger over the end of the tube when removing it from the liquid to attach to the beer source, in order to keep O2 from getting into the tube.

Brew on

 

[aeviaanah]

Maybe parchment paper would make a good mash cap?

Has anyone tested DO levels using silicone tubing?

 

[mabrungard]

Maybe parchment paper would make a good mash cap?

Has anyone tested DO levels using silicone tubing?

I recently saw that testing on fermenter bungs and I was surprised that silicone was one of the MOST oxygen permeable materials. Disappointing, but I'm doubting that the hour or two in a silicone tube is going to do much.

I guess the other thing that should be reconsidered is the use of mash caps made of silicone.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Man this poses some significant design changes for my system. Back to the drawing board!

All you have to do is purge them before sending deoxygenated water or wort through. I just keep my CO2 tank on hand on brew day and run some gas through every hose before transferring. (I'm already using it to pump CO2 into my mash tun through the ball valve while I'm milling directly into the mash tun).

 

[Die_Beerery]

All you have to do is purge them before sending deoxygenated water or wort through. I just keep my CO2 tank on hand on brew day and run some gas through every hose before transferring. (I'm already using it to pump CO2 into my mash tun through the ball valve while I'm milling directly into the mash tun).

Or just discard the first bits, if purging is not an option.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I saw this picture on the AHA forum. Has anyone seen something similar?

50 ppm Hydrocarbons, 30 ppm O2, etc......Makes me want to get a CO2 filter.

 

[aeviaanah]

I found that when designing for purging (without discarding) that the system works for CIP as well.

Turns out the mash cap I have is actually polyurethane, I wonder how that'll hold up. I did notice on my first LODO batch about 30m into the boil (simmer) that a film (similar to milk film that is formed in hot cocoa) formed. Not sure if it's because I never boiled like this or if it came from the mash cap. I did use 65 percent wheat.

The research about the fermenter bungs was interesting/surprising. I too have the orange one, I wonder if it was a bad seal that caused the data?

 

[Braufessor]

Thought I would share a new process I used last night for the first time. I have been moving most of my lager brewing to a low(er) oxygen process. For me (and others I assume) one area of concern is fermenters and transfers. My solution was to simply ferment in corny kegs. The obvious benefit is they allow for spunding, closed transfers, etc..... and, they are something many of us already have on hand and they fit the fridges and keezers we use.

The down side - when it is all said and done, I have been getting 4 gallons of beer for all my efforts and time - which is even worse when lagers tend to take longer than many other beers.

Last night I scaled up my batch size. I was just brewing a simple 1.05 (ish) german pilsner. I brew in 10 gallon pots and usually make 6 gallons of wort resulting in 5 gallons of beer. So, I basically adjusted my grain bill to produce 9 gallons of 1.055 wort from a single mash. I collected my wort, started my boil on about 8.5 gallons. I adjusted my hopping upward to scale as well (as well as mineral additions, etc.).

I kept a minimal boil and I also topped up my boil kettle with boiled water a couple times to maintain a full 8.5-9 gallons throughout. I began with 8.5 - 9 gallons of wort, and finished with the same. I added about 1/2 gallon of boiled water to both of my fermenting kegs. I chilled the wort, and added 4-4.5 gallons of wort to each keg - so that both kegs ended up with about 4.5-4.75 gallons of wort. Pitched yeast and put them in my fermenting freezer.

in the end, I was able to essentially brew 1 batch of beer and end up with 9 gallons of pilsner fermenting instead of 4.5 gallons of pilsner.

I actually nailed my gravity right around 1.050. My pH also came in right where I wanted it. I am curious as to how the hop bitterness is with the dilution, etc. However, that is something I can easily adjust in the future based on taste.

I had my water ready to go and just turned the flame on when I got home from work. Changed clothes, milled my grain, I started at 4pm and was sitting on the couch drinking a beer (finished) by 8:30 pm.

At any rate, if there are others out there like me who are using kegs for this process, and somewhat frustrated with the efforts resulting in smaller batch sizes, this seemed to work extremely well (especially for my first trial doing it). I guess I will know for sure in several weeks.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I saw this picture on the AHA forum. Has anyone seen something similar?

50 ppm Hydrocarbons, 30 ppm O2, etc......Makes me want to get a CO2 filter.

Yea which is exactly why force carbing your beer with bottle co2 is enough to oxidize it, and only promote natural carbing methods which are pure co2.

 

[doug293cz]

I saw this picture on the AHA forum. Has anyone seen something similar?

50 ppm Hydrocarbons, 30 ppm O2, etc......Makes me want to get a CO2 filter.

Yea which is exactly why force carbing your beer with bottle co2 is enough to oxidize it, and only promote natural carbing methods which are pure co2.

The thing about spec sheets is they only tell you what the worst case is. I ran across a study that did detailed testing on bev grade CO2, and the typical O2 was about 50 ppb (IIRC.) Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the link, and haven't been able to find it since. I've also seen some analysis reports from commercial suppliers that list O2 as "less than 30 ppm" with a note that 30 ppm is the lower detectability limit of the test method used. They don't test the actual because it costs more, and they don't need to in order to meet spec.

Brew on

 

[Die_Beerery]

Even if it is ppb, the upper most limit of finished beer DO is 150ppb. Doesn't take long to get there!

 

[aeviaanah]

When natural carbonating is complete how do you serve?

 

[schematix]

When natural carbonating is complete how do you serve?

With bottle CO2.

In my experience the quality progressively diminishes the longer it is connected to the serving gas. I notice the change after about 1-2 weeks. Recently i connected an undercarbed oat stout to the serving gas and it was back to standard ox flavor in a few days. @#*$!.

The best solution I've seen to date involves consuming the beer as quickly as possible, preferably the whole keg in one session in the presence of friends and family. Alone is ok too though. I won't judge.

 

[MSK_Chess]

standard ox flavour, lol

 

[AMessenger]

With bottle CO2.

In my experience the quality progressively diminishes the longer it is connected to the serving gas. I notice the change after about 1-2 weeks. Recently i connected an undercarbed oat stout to the serving gas and it was back to standard ox flavor in a few days. @#*$!.

The best solution I've seen to date involves consuming the beer as quickly as possible, preferably the whole keg in one session in the presence of friends and family. Alone is ok too though. I won't judge.

Damn! Didn't realize the gains could be lost so quickly. I'd been thinking that longer term stability of flavors was one of the key benefits of this brewing approach.

Is this a pretty consistant observation?

 

[techbrau]

I have observed that the majority of the O2 in this case appears to come not from impurities in the CO2, but via diffusion through the gas line.

Don’t leave your gas line permanently connected to the keg. Only attach it momentarily when you need to top up the pressure or do some serving. And before you connect it to the keg, blow some CO2 through it to purge it. If you are getting all of your initial carbonation via spunding, then you shouldn’t see much if any flavor loss this way.

 

[schematix]

Damn! Didn't realize the gains could be lost so quickly. I'd been thinking that longer term stability of flavors was one of the key benefits of this brewing approach.

Is this a pretty consistant observation?

I should be clear too - it's a gradual decline. It's not like on day 9 its there and day 10 it's suddenly gone.

I think there is something to tech's comment about the hoses. I always notice the 2oz or so in the bev line is usually flat and oxidized after a day. Even the mega thick walled bev line is that way. Not sure what's going in, or out.

I would say i'm less concerned about the gas hoses. Not saying there isn't anything there but i'd be more concerned about the amount of air trapped and introduced with each disconnect/reconnect than the hose itself. Perhaps there's some middle ground of installing a small valve at each gas QD along with a bleeder valve to purge the line between uses.

Lastly, I've noticed on batches where my sulfite doses were higher it had better longevity. Now with that said, i was using way too high sulfites for a while and had some seriously sluggish fermentations. I took the best advise around here which is to get the strips and test! The last several batches I've done at 10 ppm and they've had by far the quickest flavor drop off. But they are also the best beers I've made yet and i'm guzzling them at an unhealthy rate. So i have considered adding a small dose (a few ppm) of post fermentation sulfites back for protection.

 

[aeviaanah]

I don't use any sulfites in my process anymore, and my roast malts are possibly more potent ( if not the same) then they were with sulfites. I also do not use any sulfates in my brewing water. Just another data point.

I understand no sulfites but why no sulfates?

 

[Die_Beerery]

I understand no sulfites but why no sulfates?

I like soft water with more chloride.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I like soft water with more chloride.

How much chloride do you shoot for across a range of styles? How about calcium?

 

[Bilsch]

I would say i'm less concerned about the gas hoses. Not saying there isn't anything there but i'd be more concerned about the amount of air trapped and introduced with each disconnect/reconnect than the hose itself. Perhaps there's some middle ground of installing a small valve at each gas QD along with a bleeder valve to purge the line.

I solved this by setting my regulator at ~5psi or so and then crack the screw cap on the gas qd just slightly until there is a very small leak past the seal. Then I connect the qd to the keg and right away tighten the cap. Then just crank the regulator up the the keg pressure you want. This way the trapped volume in the qd is vented.

 

[schematix]

I solved this by setting my regulator at ~5psi or so and then crack the screw cap on the gas qd just slightly until there is a very small leak past the seal. Then I connect the qd to the keg and right away tighten the cap. Then just crank the regulator up the the keg pressure you want. This way the trapped volume in the qd is vented.

I couldn't imagine venting my QD like that every time i go to use them. Even i have my limits of what i'm willing to do for low oxygen beer. I could see this being useful though for the initial connection if you were really worried about trapping the tiny pocket of air in the QD. But this as a daily chore would not get my vote.

I think a simpler solution would be to just to do something like this. When you're not serving, close all the shutoffs. When serving, first open the purge valve for a second or two, close it, then open the main shutoff.



+1 MSPAINT.EXE

 

[MSK_Chess]

or you could get a stainless carbonation cap and purge it with that, gently push it into the gas disconnect, not all the way though, just enough until gas started to be released, it would purge your lines for you me thinks.

 

[Bilsch]

It works pretty good for me because I don't need to repressurize the kegs that often but yea if you did it every day.