The Misunderstanding of the World's Best Beers

[hunter_le five]

I had a double IPA homebrew recently which the brewer claimed used 24oz of hops... for a 5 gallon batch. That's a pound and a half. Most of my homebrews use 2-5oz. There where more hops by weight in the recipe than specialty grains. Not sure if the guy's a Lupulin Shift victim, or just likes hops.

I'm not a hop head, but it was a damned good beer. I can only imagine how much that brew must have cost to make, though.

 

[drainbamage]

I had a double IPA homebrew recently which the brewer claimed used 24oz of hops... for a 5 gallon batch. That's a pound and a half. Most of my homebrews use 2-5oz. There where more hops by weight in the recipe than specialty grains. Not sure if the guy's a Lupulin Shift victim, or just likes hops.

I'm not a hop head, but it was a damned good beer. I can only imagine how much that brew must have cost to make, though.

That would have to be all hop bursting and dry hops, wouldn't it?

But yes, that had to be expensive as hell.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

So strong flavors destroy palates?

Yeah, I think you're wrong on that one.

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

 

[hunter_le five]

That would have to be all hop bursting and dry hops, wouldn't it?

But yes, that had to be expensive as hell.

I think he said "only" 4 or 5 oz was for bittering, and the rest were at flameout or dryhops.

 

[Gameface]

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

I have gone from drinking a DIPA to a Scottish ale out of my taps and I enjoyed the Scottish ale a lot. Was able to taste the maltiness just fine.

 

[AK7007]

Contrast that with mass lagers where the flavors are so similar that one can't be easily differentiated from any other. So, there is a point at which being too balanced becomes blandness.

I actually disagree with that idea that mass lagers are hard to differentiate. It happened randomly when there was a mess of beer left over from a party while camping, but myself and like 10 other people started passing around coors, pabst, kirkland light (couldn't believe costco has a brand), and miller - we were blown away by the differences. I would say that the lightness made it easier to quickly identify blind than the wide plethora of IPAs that focus on Centennial, Chinook, and Cascade.

 

[Gameface]

I actually disagree with that idea that mass lagers are hard to differentiate. It happened randomly when there was a mess of beer left over from a party while camping, but myself and like 10 other people started passing around coors, pabst, kirkland light (couldn't believe costco has a brand), and miller - we were blown away by the differences. I would say that the lightness made it easier to quickly identify blind than the wide plethora of IPAs that focus on Centennial, Chinook, and Cascade.

I'd say to try a double blind taste test on the mass market lagers and see how well you can pick one from the other.

 

[AK7007]

I'd say to try a double blind taste test on the mass market lagers and see how well you can pick one from the other.

Doubt I could pick out specifics - but the sheer corniness of some vs the sweetness of others means that triangle tests would probably show the odd one out fairly often.

 

[iijakii]

Do the same with IPA -- they all run together tasting a bunch in a row.

Either way, IPAs and lagers are both delicious and not due to 'balance' in either IMHO. Lagers for being crisp and refreshing, if you want to call that balance then...

 

[Psylocide]

Do you ever go from a DIPA down to a cream ale while drinking? Or a RIS to a light lager? Maybe I've just heard people repeat the same thing incorrectly but everything I've heard you go from least intense to a highly intense flavors while tasting beers.

If you take what Beersk is saying at face value, of course DIPAs don't destroy our pallates permanently otherwise the first time you burn your tongue with hot coffee you would never taste food for the rest of your life. If you drink a big fat RIS or a oak aged barleywine or a super smokey rauchbier or a huge 120IBU FG 1.009 DIPA, then go and try something like a witbier/light lager/cream ale, your palate will be way way off. I personally after drinking an IPA only really feel like drinking IPAs or other fairly dry styles, going from IPA to a dunkelweizen is really not fun, makes the dunkelweizen taste like I'm drinking sugar water.

The only time I've had truly religious experiences was drinking the classics from the trappist breweries. I do like IPAs and the occaisonal DIPAs and understand the hype but I never plan on drinking any of the big ones, except for maybe Zombie Dust because I have 1lb of citra pellets that may be destined for a Zombie Dust clone.

Yeah... but it only takes like 3 gulps (basically 1 beer) to "reset" your palate.

So, if I go from a big DIPA or really any IPA to Busch Light, the Busch Light - at first - tastes like straight up aluminum bananas.

Two more drinks, it's back to normal.

Just like the fact that it takes more than a 4 oz taste of a big DIPA or IPA to appreciate the flavor. You gotta coat the mouth, then start picking out flavors.

I think the same goes for most beers.

 

[day_trippr]

Meh. Another "I don't like IPAs" thread...in thin disguise...

Cheers!

 

[Dmlsys23]

Balance is essential. It’s interesting that the topic is best beers and most of the discussion is on insanely over-hopped pales.



I was a BJCP judge for Imperial IPA this year. Pliny the Elder is the poster child for this style. Personally I’m loving the Ruination.





It’s possible that a hop bomb might win in a smaller competition, but given a choice, I think most judges would pick the one that has enough backbone to hold up the hops.



I think that eventually the pendulum will swing back re IPA, and people will increasingly ask, “Where’s the beer?”.



The best beers I’ve tasted were homebrews. One was an English Barleywine, the other was a Dubbel.

They both did ‘the ester dance’. That’s when the esters are so complex and lively that every sip is a little different.



Twice in 40 years, but it keeps me goin’.

Amen! I judged fruit beers last year and had a Belgian Dubbel aged on Sour cherries. Perfect balance of esters to fruit and It was so damned good and I curse myself for not asking the brewer for the recipe on the back of the scoresheet! Best beer I ever had, and I don't even like Belgians a lot of the time. That's how good it was to me.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Yeah... but it only takes like 3 gulps (basically 1 beer) to "reset" your palate.

So, if I go from a big DIPA or really any IPA to Busch Light, the Busch Light - at first - tastes like straight up aluminum bananas.

Two more drinks, it's back to normal.

Just like the fact that it takes more than a 4 oz taste of a big DIPA or IPA to appreciate the flavor. You gotta coat the mouth, then start picking out flavors.

I think the same goes for most beers.

I was merely stating the generally accepted practice for ordering a flight of beers for a tasting (unless you are ordering the flight in some specific manner to showcase something about the grouping of beers). People can and should drink in whatever manner that pleases them in whatever order they want.

Edit: Obviously anecdotal: Myself and quite a few people I know need more than a couple gulps of the next drink or water/oyster crackers to reset my palate, I consider myself to have an "average" palate at best so I am no super taster or anything.

 

[worlddivides]

There's a ton of nonsense in this thread. Douple IPAs ruin your palate? Does eating spicy food mean you cannot taste anything that isn't spicy? Does eating sour food mean you cannot eat anything that isn't sour? Once you start eating salty food, you can never eat anything that isn't drenched in salt? Of course not.

I'm a huge fan of pale ales, IPAs, and Double IPAs, but I oftentimes will get a beer haul that includes Double IPAs, Russian Imperial Stouts, lagers, sour ales, kolsches, porters, and more.

If you don't like IPAs or Double IPAs, then don't drink them. It's that simple. But claiming that hopheads can't appreciate a good lager, a good dubbel, or a good lambic is just ignorant.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

I had PtE out of a bottle, and it was just fine. I imagine that somehow, that level of quality can be achieved by a homebrewer using bottles.

PTE is not bottle-conditioned, that is the difference

 

[Psylocide]

I was merely stating the generally accepted practice for ordering a flight of beers for a tasting (unless you are ordering the flight in some specific manner to showcase something about the grouping of beers). People can and should drink in whatever manner that pleases them in whatever order they want.

I hear you, but still think the standard 4-6 oz flight glasses do no justice to a single brew.

 

[Gameface]

When it comes to declaring a beer "the best beer in the world" or whatever, you can bet that's it's not going to be a simple well balanced beer. Level of difficulty is going to be one of the biggest considerations. Just like in gymnastics, you can forgive a little wobble on the landing if the level of difficulty was off the charts, but a flawless performance at a low level of difficulty isn't even going to be in the running.

Just like in music, level of difficulty might impress those who also perform but often doesn't really sound all that great, see people way overdoing the National Anthem to show how good they are at singing.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I hear you, but still think the standard 4-6 oz flight glasses do no justice to a single brew.

Damn straight, I never really liked IPAs... until I really started going into trying and tasting them. Started with New Glarus Moon Man Pale Ale and Bell's Two Hearted then moved up the scale from there (in my opinion nothing beats a rye IPA with big rye character, or a black IPA). IPA/DIPA is definitely a style you need to drink *a lot* of to figure them out (homebrewing IPAs really helped bring it home for me since I could try the same recipe from the same batch over and over).

Like gameface just stated, as soon as you hear "best in the world" you will be invariably disappointed. If someone said "this is the best blue cheese in the world here try it" I would promptly throw up in their face. Start with the low/medium tier IPAs to get an idea of what is a "bad" IPA to figure out what makes a good IPA.

I wonder if theres been a decrease in beer drinkers "growing up" on yellowpeewater keystone light/BMC beers, so when they 'grow up' on decent craft beer they don't have that really low bar to compare to. When you play beer pong with 3 30packs of keystone line 4 nights a week for a couple years straight you make a comparison "this beer is bad, but its not as bad as keystone light".

 

[beersk]

Do the people who experience that lose the ability to taste anything but lupulin?

Please get off your high horse already.

Well, I'm just sayin', this is my observation. People just need their beers to be bigger and bolder all the time and don't appreciate the subtle qualities in a style like helles.

And you will likely never catch me on a horse.

 

[Psylocide]

Well, I'm just sayin', this is my observation. People[who?] just need their beers to be bigger and bolder all the time and don't appreciate the subtle qualities in a style like helles.[citation needed, ambiguous]

And you will likely never catch me on a horse.

ftfy

 

[iijakii]

Well, I'm just sayin', this is my observation. People just need their beers to be bigger and bolder all the time and don't appreciate the subtle qualities in a style like helles.

And you will likely never catch me on a horse.

Or we just like our IPAs a certain way. To me an IPA needs to be super dry and super bitter. Anything else is just lackluster. Similar to me for sours. The slightly tart ones are just a bit boring -- I want some puckering goodness. That has nothing to do with my overall taste -- just because I like bold IPAs and sours doesn't mean I require bold outlandish flavors in all regards. I love helles and other lagers. Pilsners are one of my favorite styles still. Thoughts on different beer styles can be independent.

How about this: I love both bbq meat and various tofu dishes.

 

[ECBrew]

If you are interested in the style, try it and make your own opinion. Noone really cares if you like it or not, other than you and maybe the guy that brewed it (probably not). It's beer! Drink it, form your own opinion, and move on. The beer community is far too concerned with what everyone else thinks. When I drink I tend to go for anything on the menu that I haven't had, regardless of what the general consensus is... when I find things that I like about certain beers I might work them into my own creations. Don't feed the hype machine, and never set an expectation based on others reviews because its unlikely to ever be that earth shattering.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I had a double IPA homebrew recently which the brewer claimed used 24oz of hops... for a 5 gallon batch. That's a pound and a half. Most of my homebrews use 2-5oz. There where more hops by weight in the recipe than specialty grains. Not sure if the guy's a Lupulin Shift victim, or just likes hops.

I'm not a hop head, but it was a damned good beer. I can only imagine how much that brew must have cost to make, though.

Well, that is pretty aggressive... That's 9# per barrel, which would be contrasted with Stone Ruination (2.5#/bbl) and Stone RuinTen (5#/barrel).

But honestly I've found that with IPA/DIPA, it's nearly impossible to overdo the flameout and dry hop additions. I posted recently about a collaboration brew I did with a buddy last year where we did a 1.037 OG session IPA, using a whole pound of hops in 10 gallons. Essentially hopping the beer more heavily than Ruination. The difference was that the ENTIRE pound was a flameout/whirlpool addition. No early bittering additions whatsoever in the recipe. It came out delicious!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Well, that is pretty aggressive... That's 9# per barrel, which would be contrasted with Stone Ruination (2.5#/bbl) and Stone RuinTen (5#/barrel).

But honestly I've found that with IPA/DIPA, it's nearly impossible to overdo the flameout and dry hop additions. I posted recently about a collaboration brew I did with a buddy last year where we did a 1.037 OG session IPA, using a whole pound of hops in 10 gallons. Essentially hopping the beer more heavily than Ruination. The difference was that the ENTIRE pound was a flameout/whirlpool addition. No early bittering additions whatsoever in the recipe. It came out delicious!

If you have a plethora of home grown hops this is the best way to treat them since you cannot (unless you spend the money for lab testing) know the AA%. Using up some old pellet hops + 21oz of wet cascade hop cones in a black IPA, delicious (I think if I check my notes I had 28 total oz put in at 3 minutes and whirlpool). I would tell anyone thats tried IPAs and thought they were too sharply bitter, homebrew an IPA where 95% of the hops are added at less than 5 minutes, completely different beast.

 

[Psylocide]

Well, that is pretty aggressive... That's 9# per barrel, which would be contrasted with Stone Ruination (2.5#/bbl) and Stone RuinTen (5#/barrel).

But honestly I've found that with IPA/DIPA, it's nearly impossible to overdo the flameout and dry hop additions. I posted recently about a collaboration brew I did with a buddy last year where we did a 1.037 OG session IPA, using a whole pound of hops in 10 gallons. Essentially hopping the beer more heavily than Ruination. The difference was that the ENTIRE pound was a flameout/whirlpool addition. No early bittering additions whatsoever in the recipe. It came out delicious!

I'll take one of those. What did it finish at?

 

[AK7007]

There's a ton of nonsense in this thread. Douple IPAs ruin your palate?

I think people were just trying to say in the very short term, if you drink a really good DIPA before a mild beer, the mild one is going to seem very bland and you may have trouble picking out the nuances of that mild beer. That's not nonsense or controversial.

As an extension though, people obviously do "warm up" to certain beers over time. If you give a really good DIPA to somebody who only drinks angry orchard, they likely are not going to enjoy it as much as a guy like me who spends his nights inhaling deeply from a tulip glass of homebrew DIPA. That doesn't mean that the angry orchard guy won't in the future like the DIPAs.

 

[worlddivides]

I think people were just trying to say in the very short term, if you drink a really good DIPA before a mild beer, the mild one is going to seem very bland and you may have trouble picking out the nuances of that mild beer. That's not nonsense or controversial.

That is very true, but it's also kind of a "duh" statement. And if that is what the previous posters meant, I kind of wonder why the statement was made at all. It seemed to be looking down on double IPAs with excessive hop usage (as "unbalanced" and destroying your palate). With my previous analogy, if you eat a moderately spicy burrito and then immediately try to eat some very delicate sushi, the spiciness of the burrito will, of course, interfere with the flavor of the fish, the rice, and so on. But that doesn't say anything negative against the burrito or the sushi. In fact, even if you're only eating sushi, traditionally you cleanse the palate in between different sushi types with pickled ginger. It's not unique to Japanese cuisine either. In the West, when tasting different wines, it has been traditional to cleanse one's palate when switching wines. I never see people who eat Mexican food being accused of destroying their palates with spiciness and not being able to appreciate more "delicate foods," but I have seen people claiming that "hopheads" can no longer drink any beer that isn't 10,000 IBUs and bitter enough to kill a mule (or some other hyperbole).

And in my case, I oftentimes DO drink a lager shortly after drinking a double IPA. I don't see a problem there.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'll take one of those. What did it finish at?

Not sure. This was a pair of beers that we did as collaborations. I brewed a DIPA on my system and he did the session IPA on his. The idea was that we'd have some commonality in grain bill and hop selection in the recipe and each serve them side by side. Since we both brew 10 gallons and keg, it's easy to swap half-batches.

Only problem is that I almost never bother to measure FG (I've got my brewing down to the point where I only do it with finicky yeast like saison), and I never asked him the FG. He was using WLP029 and we mashed low (147F) and long (90 min), if that helps.

 

[beersk]

Or we just like our IPAs a certain way. To me an IPA needs to be super dry and super bitter. Anything else is just lackluster. Similar to me for sours. The slightly tart ones are just a bit boring -- I want some puckering goodness. That has nothing to do with my overall taste -- just because I like bold IPAs and sours doesn't mean I require bold outlandish flavors in all regards. I love helles and other lagers. Pilsners are one of my favorite styles still. Thoughts on different beer styles can be independent.

How about this: I love both bbq meat and various tofu dishes.

Well, I certainly am sorry I offended you guys. I was only stating my observations. But I guess I shouldn't have chimed in as it doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.
I guess I get annoyed that the most popular beers, and most places' taplists, have nothing but those big and bold beers that are 7+% abv. Would these places rather have you stay for 1 pint or 3?

 

[Kharnynb]

My only real issue with the rating sites is that they tend to be slanted towards american beers, both in ratings as well as content.

I totally believe that there is a lot of good beer being made in US breweries, but only 2 european beers in the top 20 best beers on beeradvocate.com, that's probally a rather heavy bias.

 

[iijakii]

Well, I certainly am sorry I offended you guys. I was only stating my observations. But I guess I shouldn't have chimed in as it doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.
I guess I get annoyed that the most popular beers, and most places' taplists, have nothing but those big and bold beers that are 7+% abv. Would these places rather have you stay for 1 pint or 3?

I certainly agree with that -- visit Oregon some time. 40 beers on tap? 35 are IPA-variants. And only 5 of them are even good ones.

 

[iijakii]

My only real issue with the rating sites is that they tend to be slanted towards american beers, both in ratings as well as content.

I totally believe that there is a lot of good beer being made in US breweries, but only 2 european beers in the top 20 best beers on beeradvocate.com, that's probally a rather heavy bias.

Well they're US-based English sites

 

[Kharnynb]

I didn't say it wasn't logical, it's just annoying for us old-country ppl....

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I didn't say it wasn't logical, it's just annoying for us old-country ppl....

Well to be fair its probably sample bias. The beers that get the most number of ratings will generally be American beers since we are decandent capitalist pigs and we all have smart phones and think our opinions matter.

In most of the country we probably get less than 1% of the delicious beers you guys get in the old-world. The gist of the European beers we do get are the well known Belgian/German beers with a smattering of UK and French beers.

 

[iijakii]

Do you think on ZuhauseBrau.de they're complaining that there's only highly rated pilsners and hefes?

"Mein Gott! Wo ist der IPA? Es ist sehr shmeckt! Kalifornia IPA mein leiblings brau!"

 

[TheMadKing]

I certainly agree with that -- visit Oregon some time. 40 beers on tap? 35 are IPA-variants. And only 5 of them are even good ones.

Only 40? You must not have gone to a good enough taphouse for the Portland/Seattle Regions :cross: There used to be a bar in the center of my college campus that kept 100 beers on tap!

 

[wmilas]

I wasn't going to post cause I figured one more opinion.. blah.. But the more I thought about it, the more I think I have to post this to get it off my chest.

Balance does matter in respect to the specific style. People, and people's palates drift towards styles they like. For instance I enjoy malty Germans and estery Belgians. I enjoy a good sour every now and then. RiS are good if they accentuate the chocolate and other flavors and don't bury them in bitterness.

As you can tell, I'm not a APA/IPA/DIPA fan. That doesn't mean I don't make a orange/coriander APA for summer time. (The Cascades Orange recipe on this site is fantastic!). But it does mean I drift more towards the styles I like.

I'm blessed that the price of the beer doesn't matter much to me, and I have friends that are very active traders. I've tried thousands of commercial beers. I've learned, THAT FOR ME, the best ones are always in the styles I like.

For instance, one of my top 5 beers in the world is Ayinger Celebrator Doppel. Its perfectly balanced for the style, and has notes of maltiness that are sublime. I've tried to replicate it myself and I can't. Its one of the few commercial beers that I stock regularly.

Whats the point of all this? My point is that the best beers in the world for you will naturally gravitate towards the styles you enjoy. For me, not a single DIPA is in my top 10. Doesn't mean Heady Topper isn't a great beer... Its just not great for me.

And if it matters, I gave away a case of heady to my friends cause I thought they would enjoy it more than me

 

[Eugenio]

Hehe this remonds me of when I first tried Westvleteren 12, I almost lit candles to set the mood. One sip in and I realized I vastly prefer St. bernardus 12. But, its a cool bottle, and a cool story, not mention scarce, so now I have 2 bottles for the cellar. Happened again last month when i tried their blonde...quite inferior to the Orval one.

I now take ratings with a grain of salt.

 

[1977Brewer]

And if it matters, I gave away a case of heady to my friends cause I thought they would enjoy it more than me

It only matters because we aren't friends. Yet.

 

[drainbamage]

For instance, one of my top 5 beers in the world is Ayinger Celebrator Doppel. Its perfectly balanced for the style, and has notes of maltiness that are sublime. I've tried to replicate it myself and I can't. Its one of the few commercial beers that I stock regularly.

There's nothing wrong with that. Celebrator is a damn good beer.