The Impact of Kettle Trub - Part 2 | xBmt Results!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
@brulosopher....just want to say how much I enjoy your site and experiments. Hating dogma is one of my favorite pastimes and it's nice to know it can be done empirically.
 
Excellent write up. I sympathize with your hypothesis and appreciate the results of both experiments.
 
Interesting. This article notes that the cold-break material in the trub can aid yeast during the reproductive phase (similar to what O2 does for yeast reproduction). Perhaps this could explain the difference in the fermentation of the two beers.

http://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxygen_in_fermentation

Chris White talked about it on the BN way back when.

I think the key takeaway is to not stress about eliminating trub into the fermentor as having some can be beneficial to the yeast.
 
Didn't notice any mention in the write up. Are the hops part of the trub you transferred or were they in a bag/spider/whatever?
 
Interesting! I definitely won't worry too much about trub anymore, although I still want to start managing hop gunk...


Question - how much trub/break material do you estimate was in your "high trub" fermenter? From the picture, it looks like it could be ~1/2 gallon? Could this contribute to you effectively having a higher yeast pitch rate, therefore explaining the more vigorous fermentation?
 
Are you using different smaller range hydrometers in this exbeeriment? It was much harder to read in the pictures. Thanks again for all the great stuff on the site.
 
How hoppy was your trub? I'm curious what the effects are of hoppy trub vs no-hoppy trub... For that matter, what would we concider a lot of hops into the fermenter?
 
This is awesome! I usually filter off the trub from the kettle into the fermenter. Which is a pain seeing as how I have to constantly stir the funnel/screen to keep any liquid flowing through. This last batch I brewed I got impatient, and I was tired, so I just dumped everything from the kettle in. So, we'll see if it improves anything. Ive brewed this recipe multiple times (its my simple IPA recipe that produces some pretty killer beer) so it can be used as a good benchmark. Either way, awesome write up!
 
awesome as always. great read. I've been not worrying that much about trub for 6 months now and my beer couldn't be clearer or taste better.
 
Interesting! I definitely won't worry too much about trub anymore, although I still want to start managing hop gunk...


Question - how much trub/break material do you estimate was in your "high trub" fermenter? From the picture, it looks like it could be ~1/2 gallon? Could this contribute to you effectively having a higher yeast pitch rate, therefore explaining the more vigorous fermentation?

I didn't see where he said specifically, but judging from the pictures, all the hop debris was in the 'trubby' ferment.
 
I didn't see where he said specifically, but judging from the pictures, all the hop debris was in the 'trubby' ferment.

My comment about managing hop debris specifically was meant for my process only. My question was about general volumes of fermentable wort in the carboys. Did the trub-free carboy have 5.0 gallons of clear wort, versus 4.5 gallons of clear wort in the trubby carboy? That would be about 5% higher yeast pitch rate effectively if you ignore the volume occupied by trub...
 
My comment about managing hop debris specifically was meant for my process only. My question was about general volumes of fermentable wort in the carboys. Did the trub-free carboy have 5.0 gallons of clear wort, versus 4.5 gallons of clear wort in the trubby carboy? That would be about 5% higher yeast pitch rate effectively if you ignore the volume occupied by trub...

Interesting question, but I believe the non-trub batch had a longer lag time and didn't attenuate as well.
 
My comment about managing hop debris specifically was meant for my process only. My question was about general volumes of fermentable wort in the carboys. Did the trub-free carboy have 5.0 gallons of clear wort, versus 4.5 gallons of clear wort in the trubby carboy? That would be about 5% higher yeast pitch rate effectively if you ignore the volume occupied by trub...

11% higher pitch rate, actually. Pretty significant.
 
TY for doing this. Since your first experiment on trub, i stopped giving a sh*t about trub and been dumping it all in my fermentor.
 
Huh...and all this time I thought that the first result was that non-truby was better in flavor by a 2:1 margin.
 
Didn't notice any mention in the write up. Are the hops part of the trub you transferred or were they in a bag/spider/whatever?


Yep, I don't filter hops, just toss them directly into the boil. To be honest, I'm not sure that has much to do with the observed impact of the trub, my guess is it has more to do with me break material.
 
Interesting! I definitely won't worry too much about trub anymore, although I still want to start managing hop gunk...


Question - how much trub/break material do you estimate was in your "high trub" fermenter? From the picture, it looks like it could be ~1/2 gallon? Could this contribute to you effectively having a higher yeast pitch rate, therefore explaining the more vigorous fermentation?


Goodness, maybe 1-1.5 quarts more trub, best guess.

Are you using different smaller range hydrometers in this exbeeriment? It was much harder to read in the pictures. Thanks again for all the great stuff on the site.


I use a FG hydrometer, but it is only capable of measuring gravities under 1.020, hence the reason I used the standard hydrometer on the no-trub batch for that first picture.

How hoppy was your trub? I'm curious what the effects are of hoppy trub vs no-hoppy trub... For that matter, what would we concider a lot of hops into the fermenter?


Moderately hoppy? I posted the recipe in the article and don't strain my hood during the boil (or anywhere else).

11% higher pitch rate, actually. Pretty significant.


I'm not convinced it is all that significant...
 
How do you all feel about harvesting yeast from a trubby fermenter?

i'm guessing he doesn't feel that great about it. or, in different words, if you do a quick search around his site, he doesn't harvest yeast after fermentation. he harvests yeast by building up double the amount in his starter, harvesting 1/2 and pitching the other 1/2.
 
i did the full dump on my last batch as an experiment as well. it is a low gravity, blonde 2nd runnings beer and if there is any effect on flavor or clarity it will be evident. i didn't split the batch and don't plan on anything more scientific than, "does this look clear" and "does this taste good" to make my determination for future batches. i am leaning towards becoming a dumper from now on. i think it adds to the aeration as well.
 
The main reason I worry about trub in the fermenter is to keep the yeast relatively clean for repitiching. If lots of trub gets in the fermenter it's difficult to get a good handle on the level yeast solids in the recovered.

Awesome experiment, though. I'd love to see it done multiple times with the same methodology. Obviously it's a lot of work, but the engineer/scientist/QC guy in me wants more data! ;)
 
What about leaving beer on trub with a high hop content, such as trub from an IPA? I wonder if direct contact of yeast on a large quantity of hops would have an effect on flavor or yeast health. Any thoughts?

I tend to let a fair bit of wort trub enter my carboys and my beers turn out great, but I'm paranoid about hop material.
 
The main reason I worry about trub in the fermenter is to keep the yeast relatively clean for repitiching. If lots of trub gets in the fermenter it's difficult to get a good handle on the level yeast solids in the recovered.

Awesome experiment, though. I'd love to see it done multiple times with the same methodology. Obviously it's a lot of work, but the engineer/scientist/QC guy in me wants more data! ;)

there are a couple of solutions to that problem:
1) make double the starter size that you need, keep 1/2, pitch 1/2.
2) harvest at high krausen (which as i understand is what most breweries do since it's guarantying the healthiest of the yeast at their healthiest time).

i harvest yeast after racking to my bottling bucket, don't worry about the trub or hops or anything. it's not really that much extra work as they settle out better than the dead yeast even.

you could just do the experiment yourself, and then you would get tons of data.

What about leaving beer on trub with a high hop content, such as trub from an IPA? I wonder if direct contact of yeast on a large quantity of hops would have an effect on flavor or yeast health. Any thoughts?

I tend to let a fair bit of wort trub enter my carboys and my beers turn out great, but I'm paranoid about hop material.

you could also just experiment for yourself to figure it out!
 
there are a couple of solutions to that problem:
1) make double the starter size that you need, keep 1/2, pitch 1/2.
2) harvest at high krausen (which as i understand is what most breweries do since it's guarantying the healthiest of the yeast at their healthiest time).

Those are two OTHER solutions. Neither of which is all that appealing to me. A double starter for a 10 gallon batch is massive and won't fit in my 4L flask. Harvesting at HK is a good idea but requires another step in my process. Harvesting yeast when transferring adds nominal time to the transfer process, since I'm already setting aside time and getting everything set up/sanitized for the transfer, it's minimal extra effort.


you could just do the experiment yourself, and then you would get tons of data.

I might, but it would be better if Brulosopher did it. :)
 
When harvesting from the starter you don't need to double the size of the starter and pitch half. You can use an 'overbuild' calculator to figure the size of your starter + 100 billion cells for harvesting and saving. This is the same amount that your liquid yeast package is supposed start at from the factory. By my calculations, 100 billion cells from my starters are from 0.3 to 0.6 liters, depending on the number of steps it took to build my starter.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/
http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php
 
Removing ingredients after boiling them together for an hour to see if their is a flavor impact part II. Neat how stupid things fascinate us when it comes to brewing.
 
yeah, nice study!

I'm a bit confused...if you can consistently taste a difference then why do you think the eight people that correctly identified the trub beer are just lucky/good guessers?

If you can consistently and correctly tell the difference over and over then to me there is a difference in the taste. I bet some of the 8 folks that got it right can truly taste a difference.

If 8 people got it right then 10 people said there was a difference between the 2 identical non-trub beers. Clearly these people were incapable tasters that day.
It seems like this is more of a study of how many people in the general population can't taste subtle differences in beer. Kinda explains why my brother-in-law and his friends love the taste of PBR.

I wonder how many of the 8 thought the different beer tasted better or worse?
 
yeah, nice study!

I'm a bit confused...if you can consistently taste a difference then why do you think the eight people that correctly identified the trub beer are just lucky/good guessers?

If you can consistently and correctly tell the difference over and over then to me there is a difference in the taste. I bet some of the 8 folks that got it right can truly taste a difference.

If 8 people got it right then 10 people said there was a difference between the 2 identical non-trub beers. Clearly these people were incapable tasters that day.
It seems like this is more of a study of how many people in the general population can't taste subtle differences in beer. Kinda explains why my brother-in-law and his friends love the taste of PBR.

I wonder how many of the 8 thought the different beer tasted better or worse?

There is of course a chance that his tasters simply couldn't discern the differences because their tastes aren't 'developed enough', but most of the time his tasters are beer geeks, homebrewers, and sometimes BJCP judges. The beauty of the triangle test is that it takes his own bias out of it.

One thing I would like to see for round three (other than the effect of a highly hopped beer on this experiment!) is two batches of beer, where one is dumped completely, and the other is filtered....somehow, via whirlpool, colander, professional filter, or whatever, instead of one giant batch getting the lions share of 11 gallons worth of trub, and one with hardly any.
 
I think the reason why he did one big batch was to make sure it was extreme differences between the two. If that wasn't his motive it was definitely a byproduct.
He does somewhat do the filtering by tilting the kettle. I don't think I fully understand why you want to see two separate batches. When one batch essentially has two batches worth of trub in it, and the other batch is a pretty normal batch without much trub in it at all, it kinda proves the point better, in my opinion.
 
most of the time his tasters are beer geeks, homebrewers, and sometimes BJCP judges.

Before doing more experiments, I think the tasters should pre-qualified to a certain level otherwise the results are basically watered-down to genpop.
Apparently, equivalent tasters is one of the assumptions of triangle taste testing.

Take the 8 people that got it right and test them again to reduce the guess factor to 1 in 9 and maybe again to take it to 1 in 27 and see how many are left. The ones left standing at the end of 3 rounds should be the future tasters. If nobody is standing after 3 rounds then this beer kicks ass and I would go with the findings. But I would still harbor questions knowing that Brulosopher can taste a difference,

The beauty of the triangle test is that it takes his own bias out of it.

If you want to reduce some of the bias out of the test then IMO you should go double-blind and even brulosopher doesn't know the identity of the samples, allow no interaction between tasters, randomize the numbering and placement of the cups, blindfold the tasters, and not tell the tasters (some of which are home brewers) that this is a trub vs no-trub test.

Some of that stuff along with a qualified tasting panel is what is needed for the crowd on here that likes to submit samples in competition where the tasting panel CAN tell the difference.

I don't really care about competitions. I just know that my go to IPA that I have made 50 times seems to taste different trub vs no-trub, and I somehow choose to waste the last 2 quarts of trub at the bottom of my kettle.

.
 
An interesting experiment; for what it's worth, here's a fairly recent (2012) article from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing on EXACTLY this subject:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2006.tb00716.x/pdf


It's CRITICALLY important to keep in mind the actual levels of turbidity / trub that they're talking about, though; "high, medium and low" are not just relative, but absolute measurable quantities. -With most home brew systems when we are careful to get low levels of trub into our fermenters we're probably much closer to large concentrations in the mega scale breweries that these studies are done in.

Having said that, they agree with a lot of your conclusions.
They agree that too clear of wort and eliminating too much trub IS actually a bad thing and particularly in the mega breweries current practices have possibly even gone too far-. -To me a huge take away is that the huge investment in a mash filter not only helps you turn over a lot of beer much faster but it also increases turbidity and that might actually be better for fermentation vs. very low lipid levels coming from lautertuns with long lautering cycles and deep filter beds.

Another statement from the article that I think is VERY applicable to homebrewers is the idea of wort lipid vs. oxygenation trade-offs and that higher level of lipids (particularly long fatty chained lipids) essentially "count" as additional oxygenation. -The yeast can directly take up these lipids rather than having to produce them from oxygen reactions.

-I also liked that the article ranked the long-chain fatty acids in terms of importance to yeast nutrition -anyone else notice that oleic acid is low in that list and listed as only being of minor importance? (This hints that olive oil is NOT a replacement for oxygen although passing more trub to your fermenter, might be.)


The document and your experiment continues to highlight what we already knew; the main points being:
  • Too little trub / fatty acids in wort is bad for yeast nutrition
  • More trub = faster fermentation
  • too much trub is bad for stability / the beer will go stale faster
  • More trub = less esters; but more higher fusol alcohols


I think when it comes to practical application, you don't want to transfer all of the trub to your fermenter but buying a trub filter and avoiding all trub is probably taking it too far unless you have a way to ensure your nutrient regime is adding enough fatty acids for yeast nutrition, too (I believe Servomyces yeast nutrient would cover us here).

Its also important to think of trub levels and oxygen levels together as one issue as the long chain fatty acids and oxygen are roughly equivalents here. Think of your "OXYTRUB" level.

If you've got too little esters and "boring" tasting ales consider the impact of trub+oxygen levels -you might want less trub / oxygen.

If you're getting burny, fusoly beers, ESPECIALLY on high gravity beers again think of your "OXYTRUB" levels (you want less trub in this case.) (My old brewery was a very simple 2 bucket electric system and I passed 100% of my trub to my fermenter; I ALWAYS got guesses that the ABV was much higher than it was and high alcohol beers always had some significant burn.)

Many home brewers who have been around a while and really looked at yeast nutrition and handling know the trade offs between pitch rate and oxygen / nutrient levels but it's really pitch rate balanced with Oxygen & Nutrient (Trub / nutrient) --Again, trub is another nutrient.

There's this Oxygen / Trub / Nutrient trifecta that we need to balance to drive the fermentation flavors that we want. (assuming that you've met the basic requirement to not have way too little or way too much trub).

The easiest way I can put it I guess is "Trub == Nutrient" so you really need to think about trub + outside nutrient levels together. Advanced brewers already know that you need to think of oxygen+nutrient together as one item and this just completes the picture.



Adam
 
Back
Top