That sweet flavor from Extract kits.

[BierGut]

I've brewed 6 extract kits now, all a different style of beer. I've even got one of my coworkers into home brewing and we now trade and have friendly competitions to see who's brewed the better beer. The one thing that I'm noticing from every batch that we're brewing is that lingering, sweet molasses flavor. Its hidden in some of the bigger ales but in my lighter beers like my Kolsch and my Pilsner its there.

My question is what's producing this flavor? Is it an issue with attenuation or temperature or is it just a byproduct of these extract kits? Like a complex sugar that the yeast can't convert into CO2/ethenol?

 

[ACbrewer]

are you doing full boils (all 5 gallons) or partial boils? there is some discussion that hop utilization is a bit better with a full boil. However I caution that seems more anticdotal than emperical.

 

[twistr25]

Are they finishing at the OG they are supposed to? How are you doing the additions during the boil?

 

[BierGut]

Partial boil. I maybe start off with 4 gallons of water, after evaporation I'm down to 3-3.5 which I then top off to 5 gallons when I transfer into the fermentor.

 

[KepowOb]

are you doing full boils (all 5 gallons) or partial boils? there is some discussion that hop utilization is a bit better with a full boil. However I caution that seems more anticdotal than emperical.

Part of the problem with partial boils is that, when you have 2.5 gallons of 50 IBU wort, and then you add 2.5 gallons of water, you're left with 5 gallons of 25 IBU wort.

Hop utilization also seems to be effected by the gravity of the boil I think, though don't quote me on that one.

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like an extract-y taste.

You can try adding the majority of the extract at the end of the boil, so that it doesn't cook as much extract and that should help a lot!

 

[BierGut]

I don't have my notebook with OG and FG readings but they all seem to be within the range that they should be.

 

[steveoc]

You could also replace some of the extract with corn sugar. That tends dry the flavor somewhat as the corn sugar ferments more completely than malt extract. Use a rate of about .75 lb sugar for 1 lb LME. I have used sugar for up to about 10% of fermentables with good results and dryer beer.

 

[BierGut]

Are they finishing at the OG they are supposed to? How are you doing the additions during the boil?

With regard to additions. I'm boiling the wort for approx 60 min. and depending on the style adding hops @ 30, 15, 10, 5 min left in the boil. Even dry hopped the IPA. Don't get me wrong the flavor profile for each batch resembles each unique style. They just all have that sweetness on the back end.

 

[BierGut]

You could also replace some of the extract with corn sugar. That tends dry the flavor somewhat as the corn sugar ferments more completely than malt extract. Use a rate of about .75 lb sugar for 1 lb LME. I have used sugar for up to about 10% of fermentables with good results and dryer beer.

Thats what I would have loved from my pilsner. Just cracked the first one last night and it was crisp, refreshing and then there it was...that familiar flavor. I would have loved for it to have had a drier finish.

 

[terwilliger]

are you doing a starter, aerating your wort when you pitch, and making sure you are pitching an appropriate amount of yeast? the sweetness may be caused by under-attenuation.

 

[steveoc]

I have read that you can bump it up as high as 20%, but I have not gone that high. I have done a few batches of the same beer with varying amounts of corn sugar replacing extract. I find it quite effective in adjusting dryness. I use some in almost every batch and getting FG much closer to the intended.

I think late addition of some of the malt is also a good idea in general.

 

[roastquake]

something that I've done in my pre-all-grain days (now I mash low if I want dryness) was to add yeast nutrient and yeast energizer. It seems to push the yeast to eat more sugars than it would have normally, thus drying the beer out a little more and reducing the extract-y flavor.

 

[BierGut]

are you doing a starter, aerating your wort when you pitch, and making sure you are pitching an appropriate amount of yeast? the sweetness may be caused by under-attenuation.

I'm not doing a starter. I use the liquid Wyeast pouch and yes aerating the wort when I pitch. I thought that it might be an issue with attenuation but I wasn't sure because I'm new to brewing and also becuase my friend is getting the same flavors. It's most likely under-attenuated because one of his batches came out pretty flat and was basically bottled wort. So are the yeast dying? How do I achieve full attenuation?

 

[BierGut]

something that I've done in my pre-all-grain days (now I mash low if I want dryness) was to add yeast nutrient and yeast energizer. It seems to push the yeast to eat more sugars than it would have normally, thus drying the beer out a little more and reducing the extract-y flavor.

Thanks, I'll look into this.

 

[twistr25]

That's why I asked about your FG readings. If you are in the appropriate range, then it is at least attenuating properly. As Yooper said, adding the extract at the end of the boil reduces the carmelization of the extract and reduces the potential for unfermentable sugars. I would try to do a flameout addition of you LME and see what kind of difference you get. If you have DME, that can be added at the beginning of the boil.

How well are you controlling temperatures during fermentation?

 

[ACbrewer]

I'm not doing a starter. I use the liquid Wyeast pouch and yes aerating the wort when I pitch. I thought that it might be an issue with attenuation but I wasn't sure because I'm new to brewing and also becuase my friend is getting the same flavors. It's most likely under-attenuated because one of his batches came out pretty flat and was basically bottled wort. So are the yeast dying? How do I achieve full attenuation?

Yikes, well first try getting us your OG, FG's and expected of both for the recipies.

As to the yeast, are they propogator packs? or activator packs? And did you smack them first? You friends sound like his was a problem with the yeast. I'm inclined to think if you are getting the same flavor, that under performing yeast could be your problem. There are a lot of things that can be done to improve yeast performance.

In order of how easy they are to do/equipment needed to do them.
1. Good aeration. Think you stired your wort enough? nope stir it some more. Alternativly get an O2 tank and an aerator stone and really get some O2 in there - obviously stiring is easier.

2. Pitch enough yeast - this means using a starter. consult an online calculator (like mr malty http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html) for how much you need and the starter. Basically you make a 1.040 wort of about 1 to 2 liters and pitch the yeast in a few days before you are going to brew.

3. Temp control of the brew - but this requires a fermentation chamber setup, either something simple like a swamp cooler (large ruber maid bin with water in it and the fermentor in that bin also, helps stablize temps) or more complicated like a refridgerator with automatic temp control.

4. something I'm probably missing that someone else will mention.

I'd start with 1 and 2 as they are easiest to do right away.

 

[BierGut]

That's why I asked about your FG readings. If you are in the appropriate range, then it is at least attenuating properly. As Yooper said, adding the extract at the end of the boil reduces the carmelization of the extract and reduces the potential for unfermentable sugars. I would try to do a flameout addition of you LME and see what kind of difference you get. If you have DME, that can be added at the beginning of the boil.

How well are you controlling temperatures during fermentation?

I haven't used DME yet so I'll experiment with adding the LME at the end b/c that sounds like the problem. I'm adding the LME to the wort and boiling for 60 min. which is why I'm getting caremlization and unfermentable sugars. At what point do you suggest adding the LME? Also, what is a "flameout"?
I also thought that temperature could be a factor. Being summertime my dining room temp easily fluctuates between 70-75 degrees.

Thanks guys, you've all been a lot of help.

 

[twistr25]

I haven't used DME yet so I'll experiment with adding the LME at the end b/c that sounds like the problem. I'm adding the LME to the wort and boiling for 60 min. which is why I'm getting caremlization and unfermentable sugars. At what point do you suggest adding the LME? Also, what is a "flameout"?
I also thought that temperature could be a factor. Being summertime my dining room temp easily fluctuates between 70-75 degrees.

Thanks guys, you've all been a lot of help.

At the very end of the boil is "flameout", when you turn off the flame/remove from heat source before cooling. The LME is pasturized already, so not really a need to sanitize it, just needs to be hot enough to dissolve.

70-75 is likely way too warm for fermenting. A cheap way to circumvent that is a swamp cooler. All you need is a $5 rope tub or rubbermaid bin, fill with water and use frozen ice bottles to regulate the temp.

 

[DrunkleJon]

It sounds like an extract-y taste.

You can try adding the majority of the extract at the end of the boil, so that it doesn't cook as much extract and that should help a lot!

Listen to Yooper.

There are a few questions I have before I get too specific, but are you using primarily liquid or dry malt extract? The kits you buy, are they prepackaged mass produced Brewers Best kits or the ones made up by sellers such as Austin Homebrew or Midwest Supplies?

Often times the extract taste is a result of older LME, or LME that has been boiled to death. LME is made by making a wort (without the hops) and boiling it down to the syrup it is which starts off the reactions (Malliard?) that allows the sugars to combine into more complex or less fermentable forms. This can also cause darkening when you boil on top of what it has already been through. The workarounds to this are to (in an all LME kit) to add a small portion of the extract at the beginning and the rest at the end of your boil. Otherwise in a recipe that uses DME, put a portion of the DME (made differently and not cooked down) in first and add the bulk of the extracts towards the end.

Less than fresh LME tends to add some flavors too.

 

[jessej122]

I had the same experience with extract kits

 

[BierGut]

Listen to Yooper.

There are a few questions I have before I get too specific, but are you using primarily liquid or dry malt extract? The kits you buy, are they prepackaged mass produced Brewers Best kits or the ones made up by sellers such as Austin Homebrew or Midwest Supplies?

Often times the extract taste is a result of older LME, or LME that has been boiled to death. LME is made by making a wort (without the hops) and boiling it down to the syrup it is which starts off the reactions (Malliard?) that allows the sugars to combine into more complex or less fermentable forms. This can also cause darkening when you boil on top of what it has already been through. The workarounds to this are to (in an all LME kit) to add a small portion of the extract at the beginning and the rest at the end of your boil. Otherwise in a recipe that uses DME, put a portion of the DME (made differently and not cooked down) in first and add the bulk of the extracts towards the end.

Less than fresh LME tends to add some flavors too.

I'm using LME from Midwest Supplies recipe kits.

I suspect that I have issues across the board with boiling the LME to death, temperature and attenuation. Oh boy

 

[Yooper]

I'm using LME from Midwest Supplies recipe kits.

I suspect that I have issues across the board with boiling the LME to death, temperature and attenuation. Oh boy

Yep, that is probably it.

A couple of very easy fixes have been mentioned-
- use 1 pound of extract (or thereabouts) for every gallon of water in your boil. That ensures some wort for good hops utilization and flavor, but not too much extract to give a "cooked extract" sweet taste. Add the rest of the extract at flame out.
- keep your fermentations much cooler. Grab a stick-on thermometer from a homebrew store (or one for a fish aquarium) and monitor that. Keep it at 65 degrees. You can use a bin with ice water, as mentioned, if the room is warmer.
- Either use dry yeast (S05) or use two packages of liquid yeast, or make a starter if using liquid yeast. There just aren't enough yeast cells in a liquid yeast package to ferment over about 1.045 or so, no matter what the package says!
-Not only should you keep the fermenting beer at 65 degrees, chill the wort to under 70 degrees (or even lower) before adding the yeast. This makes a much better, "cleaner" flavored beer.

Otherwise, it sounds like you've got it nailed. You're using quality ingredients, using good sanitation and good techniques (like siphoning and not splashing when bottling).

 

[twistr25]

Fortunately, all are reasonably easy to correct. And all are part of the learning process.

 

[BierGut]

Awesome! Thanks again for all of the great tips.

 

[PistolaPete]

With regard to additions. I'm boiling the wort for approx 60 min. and depending on the style adding hops @ 30, 15, 10, 5 min left in the boil. Even dry hopped the IPA. Don't get me wrong the flavor profile for each batch resembles each unique style. They just all have that sweetness on the back end.

Are you adding in any of the bittering hops at 60min? You won't get a lot of bitterness from the hops unless they are boiled for 60-45 min.

 

[DrunkleJon]

And soon it will be more second nature to maintain fermentation temps, pitching rates, and all especially once you notice the difference. Not to worry, we all started out and felt overwhelmed. Thats what this website and all of us are here for. If you have any questions or problems, the vast majority of the people here will give you friendly helpful advice, with only a little joking here and there. These are some of the best internet people I have ever met.