That Lager Taste

[BierStreet]

Been all-grain brewing for about a year and my buddy and I have made some pretty damn good ales but we need to get lagers down. First one was a Pils (pretty much a clone of Jamils Bohemian Pils) I think it got infected somehow cause it tasted bad, Also not enough yeast was pitched.... too many varibles.

Second was a Red Lager which ended up with some diacetyl but we got rid of most of that taste, Now carbed and lagered for a month it tastes good but not really like a lager IMO, think if you mixed budweiser and newcastle lol.

Now we have a Black lager which is at the diacetyl rest stage @ 65F I took a gravity and its at 1.010!!! From 1.060 OG now it was pitched with the yeast cake from the Red and it has a similar flavor but with more chocolatey notes, and a better smell, Again it tastes great but without that distinct lager taste.

Its probably too early to tell with the black and maybe the yeast carried some similar flavors over. I'm pretty happy with the gravity readings on both the red and black, it seems like the yeast is going nuts with no lag time (Wyeast 2035 american lager) Big starter for the red and yeast cake starter for the black. Also they were fermented at different temps 46-48F for the red
and 54-56F for the black

Thanks in advance.... Bierstreet

 

[asterix404]

A lager is actually not suppose to have a "lager taste". It is a very clean fermenting beer and you should not get any esters or off flavors at all. Here is how I do a lager.

I only use fresh dry yeast. 2 packets for beer below 80GP and 3 packets for beer above 80GP.
I start out the beer at 55 for 24h to get a good start on the yeast. I then drop the temp to 45 over a period of 2 days. Note that I pitch the yeast when the beer is 55, it generally takes about 6h to get the wort at 70 after chilling to 55 in the chest freezer.

I let it sit at 45 for 3 weeks. I lager 1 week for every 10GP of the original gravity rounded up at 32 degrees. I lower the temp over a period of 3 days, not more than 5 degrees per day. This very long cold lagering period will clean up everything. You can then either bottle or keg.

I can tell you right now that you will not replicate budweiser, miller or coors. That beer is mixed together in a very tightly controlled specific setting. I don't quite know what you mean with the lager taste though, it's just clean.

 

[Ernst-Haeckel]

Sounds to me like you are looking for a distinct "German" or "Pilsner" flavor rather than a lager flavor. So I would just recommend brewing a classic pilsner or a helles.

 

[bottlebomber]

It could be that the "lager" taste you are referring to is either corn or rice in the grist

 

[asterix404]

bottlebomber, I thought that might be what the person was describing too, but you can still get that same flavor from a clean fermenting ale yeast as well. If the poster is looking for that particular flavor having rice as fairly large part of the grist will produce a rice flavor. Many would consider this to be an imperfection and try to avoid it like the plague.

Again, you can not reproduce macro level brewing in a home brew setting. Most of us would never want to try, but even trying to clone a beer like that is next to impossible since they literally blend hundreds of gallons of beer to produce "the" product. Also they all have 3 srm and 3.4% ABV with almost no hops used. This means they add preservatives. At a 3.4% with no hops, the beer will just not last too long before going bad, well worse.

 

[BierStreet]

I've tasted a few homebrewed lagers that had a distinct finishing taste similar to what all the major lagers have. And yes I think what asterix404 said is what i'm looking for, a clean crispness absent of any esters that ales have. I know everyone's taste buds are a little different, but to me I can taste the similarities between Heineken, Coors, PBR and Boston lager, Sierra Nevada summerfest, GB Marzen, Mendocino Bock...the list goes on. It could be that our lager just needs to sit longer at colder temps. But i would still think that flavor (or lack of flavor) would be present after the primary ferment.

I suspected the colder ferment temps produced the "taste" i'm looking for, And maybe it is that german or vienna flavor that i'm thinking of. Hope this describes better what i'm thinking about.

One other thing what about crystal malt in Lagers? is that a no no?

 

[Boohausen]

bottlebomber, I thought that might be what the person was describing too, but you can still get that same flavor from a clean fermenting ale yeast as well. If the poster is looking for that particular flavor having rice as fairly large part of the grist will produce a rice flavor. Many would consider this to be an imperfection and try to avoid it like the plague.

Again, you can not reproduce macro level brewing in a home brew setting. Most of us would never want to try, but even trying to clone a beer like that is next to impossible since they literally blend hundreds of gallons of beer to produce "the" product. Also they all have 3 srm and 3.4% ABV with almost no hops used. This means they add preservatives. At a 3.4% with no hops, the beer will just not last too long before going bad, well worse.

I would to disagree to this statement, along the lines of how macro brews are made, I am im not trying to correct anyone just getting some knowlegde to fellow homrbrewers as I work in the beer production industry, macro level brewing does what professional breweries call high gravity brewing u take a 17 plato beer and add water deoxygenated to preserve the flavor and make 15,000 gallons out of 10 or 12,000 numbers are much higher but this is for conversational speaking, thus giving higher yield and nearly perfect dilution evertime, this gives u a thin low alcohol beer that us homebrewers avoid, it can be made at home, but we lack the lab and enviorment control our bigger conterparts have day to day, not to mention they purposely create flavors such as dms and diacytel with the use of adjunts like corn and rice which are the fillers, also read charlie papazian's homebrew book or research it and youll find its obtainable, just how far we want to take to take it is the question, hope this helps, again this only to inform not flaunt

 

[bottlebomber]

Interesting that I've never heard of or seen Mendocino Bock, and I live in Mendo country barely a mile from the brewery... have to keep an eye out, most of their brews are pretty mediocre lately but you never know.

 

[arturo7]

Consider brewing the same recipe again and again until you are happy with it. Changing lager styles and recipes adds more variables the process making it harder to define. Once you've nail the pils, move on to others.

 

[BierStreet]

Interesting that I've never heard of or seen Mendocino Bock, and I live in Mendo country barely a mile from the brewery... have to keep an eye out, most of their brews are pretty mediocre lately but you never know.

I'm pretty sure its a spring seasonal, my friend bought a six of it last year and its really good. I'm not a huge fan of red tail or the other bird brews lol but I love their oatmeal stout

 

[BierStreet]

I would to disagree to this statement, along the lines of how macro brews are made, I am im not trying to correct anyone just getting some knowlegde to fellow homrbrewers as I work in the beer production industry, macro level brewing does what professional breweries call high gravity brewing u take a 17 plato beer and add water deoxygenated to preserve the flavor and make 15,000 gallons out of 10 or 12,000 numbers are much higher but this is for conversational speaking, thus giving higher yield and nearly perfect dilution evertime, this gives u a thin low alcohol beer that us homebrewers avoid, it can be made at home, but we lack the lab and enviorment control our bigger conterparts have day to day, not to mention they purposely create flavors such as dms and diacytel with the use of adjunts like corn and rice which are the fillers, also read charlie papazian's homebrew book or research it and youll find its obtainable, just how far we want to take to take it is the question, hope this helps, again this only to inform not flaunt

Yeah i have read the same as well, brew a strong beer and water it down...which probably contributes to the distinct major brewery flavor