Taking extract to the next level?

[Brewnoob1]

So, I've done a number of batches now and believe I have my process down. However, I think it's time that my extract be taken to the next level. Every batch I've done, though tastes good, doesn't have that "finished" flavor that I'm looking for. My typical process includes an average 3-4 week primary and then kegged for a week or so tasting along the way for the correct carb levels that I like. After a few weeks in the kegs, it gets better, but still noticeably off (Not that finished flavor you think of when drinking micro brew). Friends say that it's very good, but I'm still not comfortable with my results. I may be harder on myself than my friends/family. I'm looking for something that I may be overlooking or possible fixes to my process. I've tried to secondary for a week on this last brew and though it seemed to help a little, I will probably skip that step from here on out as the risk just doesn't seem worth it to me. Also, even with Irish Moss, I don't seem to have clear beer. I am trying Whirlfloc tabs as well as gelatin with my next batch which I'm brewing this afternoon. It will also be my first full boil as I received a 30qt pot for xmas. Here is my next recipe which is a basic ale which was my LHBS recipe:

6lbs LME
.5lbs Crystal 40
.5lbs Flaked Barley
1oz Northern Brewer Bittering 60 min
.5oz Tett flavor 20 min
.5oz Tett aroma 2 min

Any changes to the recipe above? Any thoughts on some things to try?

 

[Kaz]

The first step in getting advice on how to fix what is 'off' is being able to describe the off flavor. The recipe looks fine. What temperature do you ferment at? Keeping fermentation temperatures under control is one of the most important factors in keeping off flavors down. The full boil may help but be careful, I used to try full boils in an 8 gallon kettle and it would still boil over.

 

[Brewnoob1]

Fermentation control is on my to do list for 2012, but for now, I use my garage. It stays a constant temp and I ferment in the mid 60s (beer temp from the thermometer on the fermenter). The off isn't really off flavors per se, but it's just not finished.....hard to explain. It just doesn't have the crisp clean finished deliciously goodness beer flavor.

As for full boils, I am next to the pot almost the full hour even after the hot break. I just like to watch the magic happen. Is there anything to note as different regarding the recipe for full boil? I can always use the search function for that and do some research, but figured since I am in my thread, I may as well ask the question as well.

 

[KELLEHERC]

A full boil and a starter made mine better

 

[Brewnoob1]

I'm hoping that the full boil will do the trick. As for a starter, I'm using Nottingham 11g dry yeast rehydrated. That should be plenty for a smaller beer like the current recipe without a starter...wouldn't you guys think?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

have you tried late or flameout extract additions? i think i know what you mean by that 'not quite finished' taste, it's like the beers great, but there's this one li'l taste you get in every batch, right? i had that too when i was brewing all extract. the flameout extract addition really helped with this.
i now do BIAB partial mash, add ALL my extract late or at flameout, and that flavor hasn't shown itself since.

 

[Yooper]

I'd definitely recommend doing a partial mash, and a full boil if at all possible. Also, check out your yeast pitching rates (consult mrmalty.com to check) and make sure your fermentation temperature never goes over 68 degrees for ales.

 

[TopherM]

Temp control and full-volume boils were the best upgrades I made to my beer so far. I got a display cooler that fits three of my cube fermenters on Craigslist for $125.00, then a Johnson A419 temperature controller for $55.00. I also went from a 20qt kettle to a 44qt kettle for my 5 gallon batches. It took my beer from something only a father could love to beer that other brewers like.

There are TONS of threads here that basically sum up to say that temperature control and yeast health equipment, especially stir plates/beakers for yeast starters and oxygen setups are generally what the veterans state are the best investments you can make to go from that "homebrew" taste to a more refined "commercial" beer taste.

Good luck!

 

[cm02WS6]

I was thinking the EXACT same thing over the last couple of days, but more from a recipe standpoint for my beers. You and I are in a similar situation, trying to find the things that make extract beers better and making changes in that direction. I've done all the big hitters, like yeast starter, full boil, late addition, wort chiller, long primary, kegging, and fermentation temp control. Well, not really "control", but rather awareness and catering yeast choice to what I have in my basement (but now I am heating my closet to get to 65). I've even used fresh, whole leaf hops for a little extra benefit, which has turned out good but also done with some other improvements. I've done about 10 batches and all these techniques have given consistently better results, but I'm also searching for the next "tweak" to get better. Maybe it is in recipe writing (in particular, choosing specialty grains) or some other smaller changes like aerating with pure oxygen or buying a stir plate and stepping up starters.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I think recipe may have something to do with this too as you mentioned cm. I have BeerSmith and am still learning my way around it. I'm following a lot of other people's recipes to the T and need to feel comfortable with branching out on my own a bit. I am planning a ferm chamber sometime this year. That's on my To-Do list. I've tried using MrMalty to insure proper pitching rates. I think I'm getting better at that. But as you mentioned cm, there is just something missing and I'm working to find out. Just wondering what other people's thoughts are. Partial Mash may be a good step. I need to learn a bit more about that though...

 

[ChadChaney]

I just did my first partial mash last week, mashed 2 lbs of grain in a spargebag/paintstrainer bag right in my pot on stovetop, worked like a charm, can't wait to taste the results. give it a shot, if you have a large kettle, you can go to BIAB which is essentially all grain for little cost, just the sparge bags.

 

[cm02WS6]

Well, this thread has prompted me to go to mrmalty.com and calculate some pitch rates for the first time. Apparently my 1L "simple" to "intermittently shaken" starters aren't quite enough. Looks like a stir plate may be in my future. Also need to look at some better ways to aerate.

 

[fixitoscar]

moving to full boil is going to help. But fermentation is the biggest contributor to flavor. I think the next thing after moving to full boil is using fresh liquid yeast with a starter. Even when properly hydrated dry yeast is still not as good as fresh liquid yeast with a starter.
those changes should help a bit, but the biggest thing that will help the most is going to be fermentation temperature control. A water bath is a cheap way to dampen temperature changes, an aquaruim heater in that water bath will let you slowly raise the temp near the end of the ferment keeping your yeast working as long and hard as possible. best case would be a converted fridge with a heater and a 2 stage controller.
I would not change to partial mash until your fermentation is completely dialed in.

 

[Mexicanconnection2002]

Also maybe try using all DME instead of the LME. I noticed a big difference going to only DME.

 

[Stauffbier]

So, I've done a number of batches now and believe I have my process down. However, I think it's time that my extract be taken to the next level. Every batch I've done, though tastes good, doesn't have that "finished" flavor that I'm looking for. My typical process includes an average 3-4 week primary and then kegged for a week or so tasting along the way for the correct carb levels that I like. After a few weeks in the kegs, it gets better, but still noticeably off (Not that finished flavor you think of when drinking micro brew). Friends say that it's very good, but I'm still not comfortable with my results. I may be harder on myself than my friends/family. I'm looking for something that I may be overlooking or possible fixes to my process. I've tried to secondary for a week on this last brew and though it seemed to help a little, I will probably skip that step from here on out as the risk just doesn't seem worth it to me. Also, even with Irish Moss, I don't seem to have clear beer. I am trying Whirlfloc tabs as well as gelatin with my next batch which I'm brewing this afternoon. It will also be my first full boil as I received a 30qt pot for xmas. Here is my next recipe which is a basic ale which was my LHBS recipe:

6lbs LME
.5lbs Crystal 40
.5lbs Flaked Barley
1oz Northern Brewer Bittering 60 min
.5oz Tett flavor 20 min
.5oz Tett aroma 2 min

Any changes to the recipe above? Any thoughts on some things to try?

I agree with everything said in this thread. After you try all of the good advice in this thread, if you're still not happy... it might be time to move on to all grain. After feeling just like you about my extract batches, I decided to give all grain-brew in a bag a try. After tasting a sample of my first AG batch I could tell it tastes better than an extract batch. At that point, there was no looking back...

 

[Toy4Rick]

Here is what I have done to improve my extract brews, with great success I might add.

DME only, even late addition
Full Boil
Steep grains longer
Reduce Hops to compensate for full boil
Yeast Starter
Ferment on the low end of the temp range (Hef 62-64*)
Ferment 1 week after FG reading

Have fun
Toy4Rick

 

[Burgan]

This might be a step in the right direction, but a circulator helps cool the beer down and helps produce a clearer, cleaner beer. Id also let you primary and secondary sit out in the cold (50 degrees) and below to allow the yeast and hops to drop out before kegging. This should help get that "unfinished" flavor out of your beer. My first few batches had a unfinished flavor and these tricks, along with going all grain has helped tremendously.

 

[sjuguy]

here is what i have done to improve my extract brews, with great success i might add.

Dme only, even late addition
full boil
steep grains longer
reduce hops to compensate for full boil
yeast starter
ferment on the low end of the temp range (hef 62-64*)
ferment 1 week after fg reading

have fun
toy4rick

+1

 

[baldben]

Why the preference for DME over LME?

 

[Brewnoob1]

I'm wondering the same thing from DME over LME. DME is a PITA to use for me as I hate how it gets everywhere and is sticky as all hell. If there is a much added benefit however, I'm willing to try just about anything.

Thank you all for the input thus far. I have my first FULL boil in the fermenter. I like a bit hoppier beer so left the hop schedule in tact as is. I will adjust from there.

I also just got my keezer built so will try putting my carboy in there at the set temp of 40ish a few days before kegging to see if that helps with clarifying at all.

Again, awesome group here and thank you for all the advise!

 

[fixitoscar]

I think it might be a freshness issue for the dme over lme. lme has a shorter shelf life than dme. Especially if it is not stored correctly (refridgerated and as little exposure as possible) So if your lhbs isn't turning over their lme fast enough it might be a good idea to go the dme route.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I actually asked my LHBS how fresh their bulk LME is. They said they go through the huge barrel crazy fast. They got this HUGE drum in for example and it was gone in a few days. They told me the turnover rate is pretty constant so all their LME should be pretty fresh. But, that's taking their word for it. It's a mom and pop shop that have been around for over 25yrs. I take it that they wouldn't lie to their customer base. Who really knows though since I don't work there...I just keep them all employed with the money I spend haha.

 

[baldben]

Yeah, I just listened to an old episode of Basic Brewing Radio about malt extract. It had Bob Hanson on from Breiss. He said that it's a storage issue. The hotter and longer that it's stored, the more maillard reactions that will take place in the LME and thus more extract twang. He recommended DME if you can't get fresh LME.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I'll definitely keep that in mind...especially come summer time!

 

[Mexicanconnection2002]

Why the preference for DME over LME?

I prefer to use light DME and use specialty grains to get flavor and color. I believe this lessens or eliminates any extract twang or off flavors from using extract. I have had all grain brewers that couldn't believe my beers were made using extract.

I just buy a 50 lb bag and scoop out what I need. Roll it back up and store it in a 60 lb airtight dog food container from Sam's.

 

[duckmanco]

In this order IMO:

1. Temp control via fridge or freezer and temp controller... Swamp coolers work well, but the fridge is way more accurate.

2. Move to as large a boil as you can - it should be a full volume boil, but that requires a chiller, and generally an burner that can handle it. Due late extract additions no matter what size boil you go with.

3. Proper pitching rates - find a calculator you like and use it, whether it be for liquid yeast, dry yeast, or yeast slurry. I'm just starting to repitch a measured amount of slurry from the primary of one batch into the next batch of fresh wort. I get all the yeast I need with no starters and no yeast washing, definetly a KISS routine for me.

4. Pure o2 via an aeration stone - this also made a massive difference for me.

 

[cm02WS6]

I don't know what it is about LME, but I still get the twang with supposed "fresh" LME. I've always got mine from Nothern Brewer, who says they sell hundreds of gallons a day, so it has to be pretty fresh. Either way, I've switched to all DME.