Sweet with high alcohol?

[Hickory_Bill]

I am brand new to fermenting, and wanted to make a sweeter cider with a 8%-10% alcohol content.

from what I read, my Sg needs to end near 1.03

so for 10% Alcohol my shiny new hygrometer says, I would need to start at 1.125 SG



I also read adding 4.5 oz of sugar per gallon will add .01 Sg and cider starts naturally at 1.05

So, 1.125-1.05 = .075 x 4.5 oz/.01 sg = 33 oz sugar. = 2 lbs

This seems like a lot of sugar?

will this work or will it be gross?


I also read that a starting SG of 1.070 will give 10% ABV, but I assume that would be dry and not sweet.



What would be a "safe" amount of sugar to add to to have a fair shot at success?

The yeast I picked up is listed below.





WYEAST STRAIN: 4632 | Dry Mead™

Origin:
Flocculation: Low-medium
Attenuation: NA
Temperature Range: 55-75°F, 13-24°C
Alcohol Tolerance: 18% ABV

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

Ferment the cider to dryness, and then back sweeten.

Trying to stop a fermentation at a specific point is not very easy, and would require some trial and error to get right. A much easier way to go is ferment to dryness, add some Sorbate, then sweeten to taste. When sweetening my cider, I actually like to use the concentrate that comes in the frozen tubes at the grocery store.

But one issue is packaging. Were you going for bottling this sparkling or still?

 

[Hickory_Bill]

I was inspired by drinking some Angry Orchard, so I guess sparkling, but I didn't think about making the bubbles.

 

[Beernik]

I made a 1.124 Cyser and used a beer yeast with an alcohol tolerance of 12%. it finished at 1.033.

And it is like drinking apple flavored honey.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

I made a 1.124 Cyser and used a beer yeast with an alcohol tolerance of 12%. it finished at 1.033.

And it is like drinking apple flavored honey.

Can you give me your recipe?

 

[Beernik]

5ish gallons of apple juice
9lbs of blueberry honey
Yeast nutrient

White Labs 566 - Saison II (alcohol tolerance = 12% ABV)
Orval Dregs

It has just a hint of funk.

OG = 1.124
FG = 1.033
ABV = 11.9%

 

[454k30]

Ferment the cider to dryness, and then back sweeten.

Trying to stop a fermentation at a specific point is not very easy, and would require some trial and error to get right. A much easier way to go is ferment to dryness, add some Sorbate, then sweeten to taste.

This one.

This process gives you a sweet and fizzy cider, like your stated goal of Angry orchard. I use off the shelf Apple juice and then add concentrate to bring more apple flavor to the final product. Doing that also adds to the OG. To finish it off I add 40oz of honey for an OG 0f 1.060. With Wyeast mead yeast, this finishes out at 1.002FG. I then backsweeten to taste and add 5 oz of corn sugar to carbonate. Have fun!

 

[Beernik]

Yeah, mine is not capable of being carbed unless you can force carb.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Here is where I'm at.

I have 4 gallons.

2 @ OG 1008 (includes unknown about of sugar)

1 @ OG 1090 (includes 24 oz sugar) + 1 tsp of Pumpkin pie spice

1 @ OG 1120 (includes 36 oz sugar)


I spit up my WYEAST STRAIN: 4632 | Dry Mead™, but it didn't activate like I thought it would. MFG apr 29.2013, smacked and left at RT for 6 hrs, not much expansion.

If my yeast grows, and math is right and I go to 1005 I calculate ABV at 10.3%, 12.5%, and 16.5%.

most likely I will end up somewhere sweeter and lower ABV, especially the last one.

From there I will back sweeten, I think with some caramel something.

That brings me to my next question, carbonation.

I picked up a Vinbright filter, which I planned to use before bottling.

Will this remove all the yeast, so that I can't carbonate without priming with sugar and yeast?

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

It will probably not remove all the yeast, but a good amount.

That said, filtering will always (even on a commercial level) introduce oxygen, which we all know is bad for our finished product.

Rather than introducing O2, and then having to pitch fresh yeast, why not just bottle straight from the source? Or are there other things you're trying to filter out?

 

[Robert_Paulson]

I then backsweeten to taste and add 5 oz of corn sugar to carbonate. Have fun!

Do you backsweeten with artificial sugar? I guess I'm not understanding why you would need to both backsweeten and add corn sugar to get carbonation.

Also how do you see any carbonation at all if you have already added the sorbate to stop the yeast from eating your sugar that you're using to backsweeten?

Or I could be completely minunderstanding you. I am very new to this, so I apologize.

 

[Devo9]

Do you backsweeten with artificial sugar? I guess I'm not understanding why you would need to both backsweeten and add corn sugar to get carbonation.

Also how do you see any carbonation at all if you have already added the sorbate to stop the yeast from eating your sugar that you're using to backsweeten?

Or I could be completely minunderstanding you. I am very new to this, so I apologize.

Sweet sparkling cider is not the easiest thing to do. If you want to have sweetness and carbonation you’ll probably want to heat pasteurize your cider. Read the sticky on how to do that.

What you’ll want to do is get your cider to the OG corresponding to your desired alcohol content. For 8% you’ll want an OG around 1.05. Let this ferment dry and then add priming and backsweetening sugar. Let it carbonate to your desired carbonation level, then heat pasteurize.

You can also try add a non-fermentable sugar like lactose for sweetness along with your priming sugar, but I try to avoid non-fermentable sugars as they can cause digestive problems. This would however mean you don’t have to worry about pasteurizing.

 

[Devo9]

And here is a thread on non-fermentable sugars:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/non-fermentable-sweetener-305530/

 

[Robert_Paulson]

Oh okay. That makes sense now. And thanks for the info on non-fermentables.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

Update on my progress.

I added some pumpkin pie spice (2 tsp) with one gallon of cider when I did the fermenting. This created a lot of floties.

Because of this I decided I need to filter before I tried to carbonate.

After about 3 weeks I didn't see any real drop in Sg so I decided to filter and bottle, hoping to get some carbonation for Labor Day weekend.

I Don't have my number in front of me at the moment, but I ended up with about 6.5% ABV and a final Sg of 1070.

I filtered with my new Vinbright, and moved it from the glass fermentors back to the original plastic bottles.

I left them on the kitchen counter, where I thought they would be a little warmer (80F compared to the 70F basement where they fermented) , again hoping to get some carbonation by next weekend.

After a couple of hours, I have a light foam on top of my bottles, and they seem to have built up quite a bit of pressure.

This is good news, since 1070 is sweeter than I want, and It looks like I will end up with some good carbonation.

Any idea why it started fermenting so well again?

Is it just the change in temperature?

Oxygen from Filtering?

I somewhere read it's hard to get fermentation going if the sugar is extra high, could this be part of it?

Anyone know how much pressure a plastic 1 gallon apple juice contain can hold?

 

[sesamechicken]

Isn't a gravity of 1.070 more of a starting gravity than final? Seems very high and almost undrinkable sweet. I've read that fermentation can be unpredictable and difficult if the OG is too high, and typically requires yeast nutrients to get going.

 

[Keith66]

With live yeast chomping on 1.070 in a plastic container not intended for pressurized liquids, you may want to put those bottles someplace where a "mishap" won't create too much of a problem. And keep a towel handy if you crack one open to check the carb level.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

With live yeast chomping on 1.070 in a plastic container not intended for pressurized liquids, you may want to put those bottles someplace where a "mishap" won't create too much of a problem. And keep a towel handy if you crack one open to check the carb level.

Yes, That's my concern as well.

I read somewhere that beer is somewhere between 45-60 psi.

I thought I'd pressure test one of my empty bottles to 75 PSI, and if it holds, Install 60 PSI pressure relief valves in the lids. Grainger has them for $6.

That way it will end up with a nice sparkling cider.

At the moment the lids are a tiny fraction of a turn tighter than loose. The bottoms of the plastic bottles "Round Out" and they kinda lean funny when the pressure builds.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

Isn't a gravity of 1.070 more of a starting gravity than final? Seems very high and almost undrinkable sweet. I've read that fermentation can be unpredictable and difficult if the OG is too high, and typically requires yeast nutrients to get going.

You are correct, it is sweeter than the original Apple Juice at 1005. The plan was to convert all the additional sugar to alcohol, end up at 12% ABV. But as it stands I only ended up at 6% ABV.

I still have a week of fermentation before trying to serve it, and the crowd that will be drinking it likes sweet Moscato type wine.

On the plus side, apart from the sweetness, there are no off flavors.

I am not unhappy with my first attempt ever.

I just started a new gallon with a OG of 1060, which is 1 additional cup of sugar for a gallon of cider. I'm trying a dry yeast, Lalvin 1116.

 

[Keith66]

My bike tires are 60psi, which seems like WAY more than a beer! I don't keg but I think I've read that they use a max of about 30psi for kegging. Somebody help me here.

 

[tooldudetool]

I would suggest venting those bottles, or better yet, just put sanitized foil over the top because you certainly still have fermentation happening. Something is quite off with a starting gravity of 1.120 and a finishing gravity of 1.070. You only have 39% attenuation, which is crazy low. I'm a beer brewer, but have made several batches of cider, and I can tell you that ale yeast get around 75% attenuation, and beer wort contains many more unfermentable sugars than apple juice. With a dry mead yeast you should expect more in the neighborhood of 95% attenuation, or even higher with the sugar additions you made. I think you probably underpitched unhealthy yeast. Liquid yeast is quite perishable, those smack packs have a 6 month shelf life and they lose a good amount of their vitality and cell count the longer they are kept. The fact you mentioned it didn't swell much is a good indicator of a low count pack. Keep in mind, one brand new smack pack is good for 5 gallons of 1.050 wort, and considering the high gravity and diminished cell count, you probably should have pitched two. You also didn't mention adding any yeast nutrient, which would have really helped, apple juice and table sugar don't contain all of the nutrients yeast need to be healthy and reproductive. The other vital thing for yeast health is oxygen (pre fermentation), when you put your juice into your carboy you should try to oxygenate it as much as possible. I like to pour about a third of the bottle out from high up so it splashes, then put the lid back on the container and shake the crap out of it to oxygenate, then add it to the carboy. I think when you racked your cider you mixed the yeast back up into suspension, and added oxygen, restarting fermentation. The foam you are seeing is the krausen which is a solid indicator that fermentation has restarted. You should add some yeast nutrient now, put some type of airlock, or even just sanitized foil over the top of the containers and let the fermentation finish. I wouldn't be surprised if your alcohol content doubled and the gravity dropped 60 points. Good luck!

 

[Keith66]

I have to agree that 1.070 seems awful high to stop fermentation.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

My bike tires are 60psi, which seems like WAY more than a beer! I don't keg but I think I've read that they use a max of about 30psi for kegging. Somebody help me here.

Iv'e also read soda bottles are good to about 100 psi (2L or 3L). I may use some of those, again with a 60 psi relief in the lid.

 

[IvanBrew]

My bike tires are 60psi, which seems like WAY more than a beer! I don't keg but I think I've read that they use a max of about 30psi for kegging. Somebody help me here.

I've never taken a beer keg as high as 30 psi, but I think they're rated that high.

"Typical" carbonation for beer runs 12-15 psi overnight. Serving pressures are closer to 5-8 psi.

If you have a bottle of anything at 30-60 psi, I'm expecting you to be wearing a lot more of the contents than drinking it after you open...

 

[Keith66]

Iv'e also read soda bottles are good to about 100 psi (2L or 3L). I may use some of those, again with a 60 psi relief in the lid.

SODA bottles, yes; they're made to withstand pressure, although 60-100psi still sounds way too high. JUICE bottles, not designed for pressure.

I've never taken a beer keg as high as 30 psi, but I think they're rated that high.

"Typical" carbonation for beer runs 12-15 psi overnight. Serving pressures are closer to 5-8 psi.

If you have a bottle of anything at 30-60 psi, I'm expecting you to be wearing a lot more of the contents than drinking it after you open...

Thanks Ivan! 12-15 to carb, less than 10 to serve sounds about like what I've read before. As far as 60-100psi, I can't help but think of the handful of bottle bombs I've had while pasteurizing. I wouldn't even want to take a plastic soda bottle that high. Even if the bottle doesn't explode, it's going to shoot the cap through the ceiling when you open it and your soda/beer/cider will end up in the attic, or the neighbor's yard! As much fun as that might be, I don't think it's your goal at this point. Consider that when you open a typical beer/hard cider/soda, all you get is a little "pfft" (unless you shake it or heat it first).

 

[Hickory_Bill]

I think you probably underpitched unhealthy yeast. Liquid yeast is quite perishable, those smack packs have a 6 month shelf life and they lose a good amount of their vitality and cell count the longer they are kept. The fact you mentioned it didn't swell much is a good indicator of a low count pack. Keep in mind, one brand new smack pack is good for 5 gallons of 1.050 wort, and considering the high gravity and diminished cell count, you probably should have pitched two. You also didn't mention adding any yeast nutrient, which would have really helped, apple juice and table sugar don't contain all of the nutrients yeast need to be healthy and reproductive.

I think your right, the yeast seemed a bit unhealthy. Question though, doesn't the smack pak have all the nutrient needed? for the 5 gal, or is that just to re-activate?

 

[Hickory_Bill]

I've never taken a beer keg as high as 30 psi, but I think they're rated that high.

"Typical" carbonation for beer runs 12-15 psi overnight. Serving pressures are closer to 5-8 psi.

If you have a bottle of anything at 30-60 psi, I'm expecting you to be wearing a lot more of the contents than drinking it after you open...

So 60 PSI is too much?

I'm not sure what you mean by "overnight".

What is the pressure inside a unopened bottle of beer?

 

[Keith66]

It's low enough that you can hold it closed with your thumb as it rebuilds pressure after opening, unless you shake it of course. I'm thinking IvanBrew's statement of 5-8psi serving pressure from a keg is about what you'd find inside a bottle. From what I've read (BIG disclaimer here!), when you rack new, mostly flat beer into a keg, you pressurize it literally overnight (~12 hours) at 12-15psi to force the CO2 into the beer fairly rapidly, then reduce it to 5-8psi to keep it there and serve it. That's also probably the pressure used when filling bottles from a keg using a beer gun, which would transfer the same 5-8psi pressure into the bottle when capped. IvanBrew?... hopefully I'm not talking out my a$$.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

It's low enough that you can hold it closed with your thumb as it rebuilds pressure after opening, unless you shake it of course. I'm thinking IvanBrew's statement of 5-8psi serving pressure from a keg is about what you'd find inside a bottle. From what I've read (BIG disclaimer here!), when you rack new, mostly flat beer into a keg, you pressurize it literally overnight (~12 hours) at 12-15psi to force the CO2 into the beer fairly rapidly, then reduce it to 5-8psi to keep it there and serve it. That's also probably the pressure used when filling bottles from a keg using a beer gun, which would transfer the same 5-8psi pressure into the bottle when capped. IvanBrew?... hopefully I'm not talking out my a$$.

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll have to figure out how to relieve the pressure at 15 psi.

 

[IvanBrew]

It's low enough that you can hold it closed with your thumb as it rebuilds pressure after opening, unless you shake it of course. I'm thinking IvanBrew's statement of 5-8psi serving pressure from a keg is about what you'd find inside a bottle. From what I've read (BIG disclaimer here!), when you rack new, mostly flat beer into a keg, you pressurize it literally overnight (~12 hours) at 12-15psi to force the CO2 into the beer fairly rapidly, then reduce it to 5-8psi to keep it there and serve it. That's also probably the pressure used when filling bottles from a keg using a beer gun, which would transfer the same 5-8psi pressure into the bottle when capped. IvanBrew?... hopefully I'm not talking out my a$$.

You're spot on.

When I force carbonate in a keg, I get it as cold as I can and bring it up to 12-15psi for 10-12 hours (overnight, usually). If it's going to sit a while before I serve it, I will just disconnect the CO2 and leave it.

I know commercial kegs seem to be in the 10-12 psi range when I first hook 'em up. That's partly why they tend to be "foamy" for the first few pitchers, until the pressure falls to 8psi-ish, where I usually set it.

I suspect that bottled beer is also in that 10-12 psi range before being opened.

For transferring or bottling beer that's already been carbonated, I dial the pressure down even further. That's because the slower it moves, the less likely it is to foam up and lose carbonation. 2-3 psi is enough.

 

[Keith66]

Thanks Ivan! I learn something every day! (in theory anyway)

So back to cider. If Bill's plastic store-bought juice bottles, now with fermented/ing cider in them, start to swell, he should vent them, or just leave the caps on loosely to allow continuous venting until the SG gets a lot lower than the present 1.070, or until a day or 2 before his Labor Day party, wouldn't you think? I'd still keep them someplace where an "accident" won't be too much of a problem.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

I filled a 2 L bottle tighten the lid set it in a large metal pot, and set it outside on the grill. We'll see what happens overnight. It's still 80F in Northern Illinois.

 

[butterpants]

Corny kegs will take 30psi easily.... if they didn't I'd be cleaning up a mess and not posting right now.

A common 'burst carbing' technique is to toss a keg on at 25-30psi for 24-48 hours then bleed off excess pressure and lower your regulator to the serving pressure that corresponds to the amount of CO2 volumes (it is a temperature dependent equation.... lots of online charts to figure it out). I serve generally from 10-13psi....mostly light to medium ales, belgians and heffes. Stouts and Porters would be lower if I wanted to carb to style.

The contrast is a safer yet more time consuming 'set it and forget it' method of force carbing where you set the regulator at the psi you intend to serve it at and wait 2 weeks for it to obtain full carbonation.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

The fermentation has really tapered off again (this morning), I think I'm safe from explosions.

 

[tooldudetool]

Regarding the nutrients in the smack packs, they are intended to just get the yeast going and to prove viability by swelling the pack, they chew through that stuff pretty quick. Beer wort has all of the nutrients that yeast need (other than oxygen), however sugar and juice do not, and yeast nutrients should be added at pitching time and even throughout active fermentation.

 

[Hickory_Bill]

Regarding the nutrients in the smack packs, they are intended to just get the yeast going and to prove viability by swelling the pack, they chew through that stuff pretty quick. Beer wort has all of the nutrients that yeast need (other than oxygen), however sugar and juice do not, and yeast nutrients should be added at pitching time and even throughout active fermentation.

That makes sense.


A Big Thanks to everyone who has helped me.

I've started a new gallon with K1V-1116 and added nutrients.

It is performing entirely different.

It is fermenting far more vigorously that the previous batch, and took my gallon from 1060 to dry in 2 days at 78F.

I can now see where there is a need to back sweeten .

I'll start a new thread with my new batch.