Super Apple Hard Cider

[eyaukey]

I have made cider several times and I have a few questions for the pros out there:

How can I keep a strong apple flavor in my finished product? I have read posts/articles of sipping hard cider that tasted like biting into an apple..how do I get that? I was thinking of making concentrate to help? More suggestions?


I have also seen pics of cider with a nice head of foam on them which I would also like to add to mine...I was going to use an ale yeast this time..does anyone have any tricks to get a nice looking head on it?


Lastly, really just any opinions of ingredients or aging procedurea anyone has come across that you enjoy using in your hard cider making that you would like to pass along ?

I appreciate in advance any advice you can pass along...

 

[JeepDiver]

Only way I can see head on a pure cider is if itbis way over carbed

 

[Daze]

1. Some will tell you that if you ferment it out dry all the apple flavor will be gone. That is not exactly a true statement. Apples are sweet and part of what makes them apples is the sweetness so if you ferment it out dry you will lose the sweetness. Back-sweetening is a very effective way to get some of that "apple" back.

It also seams like all the apple flavor is lost from a dry cider because if you ferment it out dry the apple flavor will be hidden until it ages a bit at which point the apple flavor will come back. A lot of people don't age their cider very long, but if you can age it a bit you will get better results.

2. The slower the ferment the more apple flavor you will have. Simple rule if you can smell apples coming out of the airlock you are loosing apple flavor. The slower the co2 is released the more apple flavor you will retain. Weather it is fast or slow the same amount of co2 will be released but a vigorous frothy outgassing of co2 tends to strip out more flavor than a slow gently bubbling ferment.

3. The more flavor you start with the more you will end with. If you are using store bought juice, AND you want a higher ABV than juice alone, rather than adding sugar add apple juice concentrate. I recently started a batch using 4 12 oz cans of apple juice concentrate to make a 1 gallon batch. 2.5 cans of concentrate is what the directions on the can called for to make 1 gallon but I added the extra 1.5 cans to up the abv and add more flavor. Fresh pressed juice has more flavor than filtered bottled juice from concentrate, so the better juice you start with the more flavor you will end with.

4. As to the head, the only time I have seen a head on a true cider is when you first pore it. If you snap a pic in the first minute you will get a great picture after that the head will dissipate because there is not a lot of body to cider. I just carbbed up an oat cider, and the oats added a lot of creamy body to the cider but I have yet to pore one in to a glass so I don't know weather it will have a head or not. It is aging, I will know in a couple of weeks

 

[jfrans84]

So can u ferment slower by pitching less yeast?
In your opinion is it better to start with the frozen concentrate or store bought juice to get more apple flavor? I have also ran into this same problem of very little apple flavor. I have made several batches of cider and all my friends foam at the mouth for my next batch to be done. They all say there is something missing and it's apple flavor! I really don't have time to age! To many thirsty friends that love the stuff I make.

Sorry to kind of steal the thread, I'm very curious as well.

 

[eyaukey]

No problem..i like the information so far and this is for everyone not just me. I have made several batches that come out well but now i am trying to improve on what I have...

Info on the cider head retention makes sense too...i have never seen a cider with head before until i saw a pic online of it and my jaw dropped thinking how did they get that?! But most likely it was snapped directly after pouring. I had noticed that they used an ale yeast which i had never used so i thought that might something different to try this time..

Anyone have experience using brown sugar in there cider?

 

[jfrans84]

I have used brown sugar and Nottingham ale yeast is just about every batch.
I have several 1 gallon test batches going right now with different sugars and yeast, just to see what happens. The last 5 gallon batch I made had three pounds of dark brown sugar and one pack of notti. Pretty simple but it's good. OG was 1.072ish FG was 1.012, crashed it for two days racked into keg over 1 frozen apple concentrate. This stuff is the best in my opinion. Im slightly morphing this recipe into a perfect taste for me and my friends. The one before that, same recipe with four pounds. It was a slightly modified "5 day cider". Way to cloudy way to sweet. OG was 1.085 crashed at FG 1.032 in three days. Tasted like very very sweet apple juice. I had more of a sugar rush than a buzz.

 

[Daze]

So can u ferment slower by pitching less yeast?

nope, the yeast you pitch is a fraction of the yeast you end up with. Yeast reproduce to fill their environment. If you had 2 identical musts sitting side by side and you put 1/4 pack of yeast in one and 3/4 of a pack of yeast in the other, the one with less starter will take a little longer to get going but once up to speed they will ferment at the same rate and end up with the same quantity of lees.

controlling your fermentation speed is done two ways, first by using a slower yeast like Montrachet instead of using "the beast" (ec-1118) the second thing you can do is keep it cool. I ferment all my ciders and wines in my basement which is less than 60º and they take months rather than weeks.

In your opinion is it better to start with the frozen concentrate or store bought juice to get more apple flavor?

when you say store bought juice are you talking about the fresh pressed $8.00 or more a gallon stuff or the $3.00 from concentrate stuff?? If using the cheep stuff I prefer concentrate because it is cheeper.

I really don't have time to age! To many thirsty friends that love the stuff I make.

I don't believe that. plan ahead. Instead of making a single batch make a double. drink half and age half, then when you make the next batch also make it a double. Keep doing it until the first batch has aged then start drinking the aged stuff and making single batches to replace what was just consumed. This will always give you some aged cider on hand.

Also a way to cheat to get more flavor is to add malic acid and make sure you back sweeten. Malic acid and sugar tastes a lot like green apples.

Anyone have experience using brown sugar in there cider?

Brown sugar makes an excellent back sweetener. I think of it as hurried mans caramel. It imparts a flavor similar to caramel but is way less work that caramelizing sugar. Not as good as caramelized sugar IMHO but still really good. A lot of people put it in as a fermentable but as I said before I prefer concentrate as a way to up the ABV, and only use sugars to back-sweeten.

 

[eyaukey]

Sounds like the apple concentrate is very popular out there which I kind of already knew but I like to see whats everyones preference is on using it...

Anyone out there ever attempted to make their own apple concentrate?

 

[Daze]

kind of but not really I concentrated concentrate. Some one on here had the idea to caramelize concentrate so I tried it (didn't work) but in the process I reduced the volume by half. Just keep in mind that it will take 1 gallon of juice to make 1 quart to 1 pint of concentrate depending on how concentrated you make it. Unless using fresh pressed I would not bother with the effort to make your own concentrate, and just use store bought. Next fall I am going to juice a bunch of apples from my dad's orchard and try both store bought concentrate with it and home made concentrate. I will report back then but it will be a few months There is also a thread on here where a guy made concentrate by freezing it and letting it thaw. he then boiled off what was left.

 

[jfrans84]

Well I was thinking about making a batch with the froZen concentrate. But I figured it up and I would have to use 18 frozen juice concentrates to make 4.5 gallons... Is it worth it?

 

[divi2323]

Well I was thinking about making a batch with the froZen concentrate. But I figured it up and I would have to use 18 frozen juice concentrates to make 4.5 gallons... Is it worth it?

Depending on what type of yeast you use, you might run into an alcohol limit before you even get there.

A typical concentrate can of 12-14oz has about 5-6oz of sugar in it. Meaning 10 cans to a gallon yield 60 oz sugar. That's about 4 pounds. A pound of sugar yields about 45 points of gravity in a gallon. So if you took a gravity reading, it would be in the 1.180 range. That's some serious abv-age. You could of course cut it down with water but.... Anyway. Numbers here are rough of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

The biggest thing & usually most difficult to control, at least for most of us home cidermakers, is the variety of apples used. True cider apples are not easy to come by for most of us, but they make the superior cider.

We usually have to use store bought mystery juice, or some other non-cider apple juice. It might be great juice, but it's not cider apple juice. You get out what you put in, meaning inferior ingredients make inferior cider/wine/mead/beer/etc...

So we have to make the best of what we can get. You can add FAJC (frozen apple juice concentrate), thawed of course, for more apple flavour, you can use molasses, raisins, wine tannin, acid blend, various spices, even malt/grain(s) for added flavour/body/head; some will help to support/compliment the apple flavour. Aging also helps, but really it just boils down to the varieties of apples used.

I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's not as bleak as I made it sound. All the things I mentioned can really help a "ho-hum" cider stand up & be really good... It just won't be really great like some of these:
http://www.wanderingaengus.com/shop/
Regards, GF.

 

[jfrans84]

No. Its 12 cans to make 4.5 gallons. Each concentrate I have has 28g per serving, 6 servings in each. That's just under 6oz each. That puts it at just under 4.5lbs for 4.5 gal. So if one pound of sugar adds 45, or so, points to a gallons my OG should still be 1.045. Right? Meaning I would still need to add sugar to get the must up the recipes OG of 1.055.

I love trying new stuff it opens great discussions. But if it comes down to it i have a hydrometer. I can take readings as I go. Any input would be great. Thanks

 

[Daze]

Depending on what type of yeast you use, you might run into an alcohol limit before you even get there.

A typical concentrate can of 12-14oz has about 5-6oz of sugar in it. Meaning 10 cans to a gallon yield 60 oz sugar. That's about 4 pounds. A pound of sugar yields about 45 points of gravity in a gallon. So if you took a gravity reading, it would be in the 1.180 range. That's some serious abv-age. You could of course cut it down with water but.... Anyway. Numbers here are rough of course, your mileage may vary.

you were close on the poundage but the gravity calculation is not correct. Looks like you based it off one gallon not 4.5. On my cans of concentrate, there are 180 grams of sugar in 1 12oz can of AJC, and the OP is making 4.5 gallons out of 18 cans of concentrate so 18/4.5= 4 cans per gallon, which is the ratio I like and use all the time. At 4 cans per gallon that is 4 * 180 = 720g of sugar per gallon which will result in 1.6 pounds of sugar or a reading of about 1.072 and a PA of 9.5% Remember there are 453g of sugar in 1 pound and 1 pound of sugar in 1 gallon of water has a SG of .045 SO you can almost take grams directly to SG simply by moving the decimal.

No. Its 12 cans to make 4.5 gallons. Each concentrate I have has 28g per serving, 6 servings in each. That's just under 6oz each. That puts it at just under 4.5lbs for 4.5 gal. So if one pound of sugar adds 45, or so, points to a gallons my OG should still be 1.045. Right? Meaning I would still need to add sugar to get the must up the recipes OG of 1.055.

Yes based on following the directions on the can 12 cans is what is required to make 4.5 gallons. based on that recipe and the sugar in your concentrate you are also correct your OG will be about 1.045, but rather than adding sugar I would add more AJC to add flavor while adding ABV. One more can of the concentrate you are using will get you to 1.060

 

[jfrans84]

Good idea. I'll do that. I'm waiting on yeast from midwest supply, and I'll be all set.

 

[Daze]

CORRECTION 1 more can would more than do it IF it was a 1 gallon batch but for 4.5 gallons you need about 4 more cans which would give you an OG of 1.059

 

[divi2323]

I based my calculations off of a one gallon batch because I understood him to want to ferment the concentrate, rather than making the juice from concentrate. If he put 10 cans of concentrate in a bucket and added yeast his og would be in the range calculated.

Apologies if this wasn't the case. If you're mixing in water to the concentrate and then adding yeast then yes your og will come to nearly 1.045-1.055.

 

[Daze]

I based my calculations off of a one gallon batch because I understood him to want to ferment the concentrate, rather than making the juice from concentrate. If he put 10 cans of concentrate in a bucket and added yeast his og would be in the range calculated.

I can see how you could interpret it that way and yes then your calculations would be spot on

 

[jfrans84]

What if u did do that? Ferment just the concentrate. It would be like Hard Apple Juice Concentrate. Just put a cup of it in a gallon of store bought juice and u would have instant hard apple juice. I wonder what kind of yeast u would see to get that started? Oh well... it wouldn't work anyway. I'm just voicing mindless ideas. It would be cool though

 

[Daze]

What if u did do that? Ferment just the concentrate. It would be like Hard Apple Juice Concentrate. Just put a cup of it in a gallon of store bought juice and u would have instant hard apple juice. I wonder what kind of yeast u would see to get that started? Oh well... it wouldn't work anyway. I'm just voicing mindless ideas. It would be cool though

divi2323 is correct using just concentrate would require the yeast to tolerate around 25% alcohol, and that is probably not going to happen. I have herd distillers yeast is good up to 22% but that is still not enough. Even "the beast" (ec-1118) is rated at only 18% (you can get more but it is not easy) The problem with making "hard cider concentrate" to mix with cider is the flavors have no opportunity blend. I imagine it would taste something like adding vodka to apple juice

 

[jfrans84]

So what your saying is, if I can find or culture some alcohol intolerant yeast, it can be done.

 

[divi2323]

Might be easier to get a 15-16% mixture and then make Apple Jack out of it