Suggestions for a beer to determine and enhance a mystery wild hop

[Mumathomebrew]

I've posted in the hop forum about some wild hops we found. I'm now drying them and wish to attempt a beer using them. Maybe just a small batch to try and enhance the character of this hop just to see/test what kind it might be. We've picked 16 uk oz so far before drying, but there are more.

Any suggestions gratefully listened to.

 

[Steveruch]

A smash beer with a neutral yeast.

 

[ratinator]

I would make a pale with s-05 and seeing how you dont know the AA% I would put majority of hops at end or whirlpool

 

[Nate R]

I've posted in the hop forum about some wild hops we found. I'm now drying them and wish to attempt a beer using them. Maybe just a small batch to try and enhance the character of this hop just to see/test what kind it might be. We've picked 16 uk oz so far before drying, but there are more.

Any suggestions gratefully listened to.

Search morebeer.com for smash. You can download a recipie for extract or all grsin for free. Or look there for other "single hop" kits. Again dowoad the recielie for free ( click the blue link). Or order the kit and use your hops at whirlpool/ flamout as raitinator stated above.
Or search the reciepies here too.

Sounds like a fun great expiriment!! Ehat do the hops smell like? Look like? Any guesses?

 

[Mumathomebrew]

On the other link this was the verdict. Bear in mine I've only ever made one beer from a kit before. I'm a wine maker normally.

"Rolling a fresh bud in my hands. They are very grassy, citrus, resinously green with almost a marjuana smell about them. It is quite a clean smell but in a citrussy sort of resinous olibanum way. Almost minty/citrus uplifting. The tea flavour was plain and green with a mild hint of bitterness but not harsh at all. Quite pleasantly refreshing."

s-05 ordered.... So exciting. Like finding treasure.

The thread I'm looking at is this for ideas.

So Maris Otter grain seems to be the one people go to.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

As I've not brewed much, I think I'll stick to an extract as a beginner. I've found this one.
1.5kg + + Own hops

I'll be back when they arrive. I can go and pick more hops if 16oz isn't enough. Then there is the wet hop/dry hop thing to consider as I could in theory go and pick them just before brewing (assuming nobody else finds them first)

I found this all grain recipe as well on another thread here from post #7. So I could do a side by side grain and extract trial.

[QUOTE/]"After tons of feedback, I decided to KISS (Keep it simple stupid), and do a SMASH recipe for my first AG. I did:

10 lbs Maris Otter
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 60
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 15
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 5
S-05 Yeast
Ferment @ 63F for 21 days
Condition @ 70F for 14 days

You can substitute your favorite hops, but you get the idea. This makes a great Pale Ale, and you can focus on your process and keep the ingredients simple."[/QUOTE]

 

[IslandLizard]

You can surely brew all grain, it's not that difficult, but it is much more time consuming as you need to mash the grain and lauter/sparge it. You also need some extra equipment to do so.
Using extract is much faster as the mashing/lautering/sparging (and subsequent concentrating) was done at the malting factory. You are basically redissolving the malt syrup. Easy peasy.

How big of a batch are you brewing?

10 lbs Maris Otter
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 60
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 15
0.5 oz Amarillo @ 5
S-05 Yeast
Ferment @ 63F for 21 days
Condition @ 70F for 14 days

That's not much of a Pale Ale, needs more hops as well as a dry hop.

Since you don't know the bittering potential of your wild hops, it is usually advised to use a bittering hop at 60' with a known AA%. You want your wild hops to shine and find out what they bring to the beer. Using a neutral bittering hop would be best at this point. I'd use Magnum, perhaps Warrior or, since you're in the UK, Challenger would be good, depending on what you can get. There are others that are very suitable too. Amarillo (as in that recipe) definitely gives it an orangy/citrusy flavor already, even as a bittering hop @60'.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Not sure how much beer this will make. I intend to do two one gallon batches to try it out. One beginner beer using the extract and one with the grain afterwards. I only have ordinary kitchen equipment, lots of 1 gallon winemaking demis and a 5 gallon glass carboy.

Have ordered so far:-
1.5kg of the maris otter malt extract in a tin
2kilos of maris otter grains
Two yeasts s-04 and s-05
Plus we now have 16oz of these unknown hops (weight before drying) and can fetch more if necessary.

Can order more types of hops but I want to see what these ones do first.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

I've got a beginner question.

Rather than not knowing the bitterness or aroma of these hops and risking £12 worth of malt with beginners error. Would there be any point in just boiling a small amount of water and add hops to this plain water for the staged appropriate times as if it was a real brew? I think what I'm asking is whether its the heating time or is it the malt sweetness that extracts the whatever they are's from hops that make beer.

It might be an idiotic question but I really don't know about beers and hops.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've got a beginner question.

Rather than not knowing the bitterness or aroma of these hops and risking £12 worth of malt with beginners error. Would there be any point in just boiling a small amount of water and add hops to this plain water for the staged appropriate times as if it was a real brew? I think what I'm asking is whether its the heating time or is it the malt sweetness that extracts the whatever they are's from hops that make beer.

It might be an idiotic question but I really don't know about beers and hops.

I guess you could boil (slow simmer) say one ounce of your wet hops* in a pint of water for 20 minutes, chill, then taste it to get an idea of the bitterness it adds. Adding a small amount of sugar say to 1.010-1.014 approximates the residual sweetness of beer after fermentation, as a gauge.

One oz of "wet hops" is about the equivalent of 1/5 of an ounce of dried hops. IOW, they lose 4/5 of their weight during drying.

How are you storing those hops you picked? Refrigerated in a squeezed (airless) ziplock bag? Are they still bright green?
After picking they get brown quickly due to air exposure and lose their flavor/aroma.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

They've been air drying, laid out on a baking sheet on the top of the left hand side of an aga. They are now dry and papery and still green so far. Not quite as noticeably smelly as they were when wet but still have a very resinous, grassy whiff. I shall squash and freeze them now in 1oz ziplock bags.

I'm trying the boiling thing with 0.3oz of the dried ones in 1 pt. Will report back.

What fun. It looks like a beer colour. Put some dark honey in for the sweetness and its as bitter as anything to my uneducated taste. Green and sharply bitter.

Update. Realised this morning that I should have put 0.2oz not 0.3oz in that if the hops had been dried. So I added half a pint of water to it after a night in the fridge. Much better and tastes like... quite nice bitter honey beer. A very palatable bitter strength. I will do a side by side with the fresh hops later when I fetch some more.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

The MO extract has arrived plus four bags of 500g of MO crushed malt barley grains. We have s-04 and s-05 yeast. Five 1oz bags of dried mystery hops in the freezer and whatever fresh hops and fetch just before going for it. (Hop and crab apple jelly got made with the sample).

Need to wash out and sterilise a demijohn or carboy or clean bucket at the weekend and see where we get to. I won't rush into it without checking what I'm doing because I don't actually know anything except from watching tube beer videos and they're all different. These hops seem quite strongly bitter to me so I don't want to ruin my first proper beer.

The Muntons Maris Otter light malt extract is 1.5kg and says it is 1.035 per lb per gallon so there are 3lbs 4 oz in this can. I'm reading this instruction page here so it looks like I would be making 3.4 gallons of lighter beer if I used the whole can all up at once... or just make one gallon and use it partially... or could make it stronger to balance this bitter hop.

Probably need to remember to get some nicer water than tap or can use a campden tablet.

What I'm not quite understanding is that many recipes call for mashing the grain AND using the extract. I had assumed it was one or the other. Going to have to read more first.

 

[IslandLizard]

You're on the right track, and you're studying, informing yourself. Kudos to you, I wish so many others did that!

The slightly sweetened hop tea you made from your wild hops should serve as a guide to how much bitterness you want in your beer. The pint you made would most likely range from too bitter to (being undrinkable) much, much, much too bitter. Since you don't have a hop with a known %AA to directly compare to, you need to dilute a one ounce sample of your hop tea 1:1 with water. That gives you 1/2 the bitterness of your original tea.

Compare that to beers you've had or a beer you have on hand and how you want this new brew to place in that range. If still too bitter, dilute 1 ounce of your already 1:1 diluted sample again 1:1 with water, you're at 1/4 of the bitterness of your original tea. etc.

Keep track of the dilution until it tastes just right. Step away, eat something neutral to reset your palate, and return for a re-evaluation. Keep notes, and perhaps have a 2nd opinion from someone else. I usually have my wife, unaware of what I cooked up, taste 2 or 3 samples and ask which she prefers. We then discuss and analyze to come to a verdict.

When you know which dilution tastes best, recalculate the bittering hop needs (30-60' boil) for your 1 gallon (8 pints) batch.

You can always add somewhat more bitterness by adding some extra bitter hop tea later on, although it's a bit cumbersome.
Remember, you can't remove bitterness if it's too much.

 

[IslandLizard]

Some recipes use part extract and part all grain ("partial mash"). For some beers containing adjuncts (e.g., flaked wheat or torrified wheat), those need to be mashed with a base malt, they cannot be steeped. Crystal/Cara malts can be steeped, as well as most roasted malts.

A 1.040-1.050 OG beer would be perfect to test these hops.

For extract split the extract, half in the boil, the rest after boil is done.
You can save part of the can, cap, or stick in a plastic bag, and refrigerate or freeze, but needs to be used within a week (or 2).

 

[eric19312]

you need to dilute a one ounce sample of your hop tea 1:1 with water. That gives you 1/2 the bitterness of your original tea.

Don't forget to adjust the honey you added for sweetness. Bitterness and sweetness offset each other. You were right to add the sweetness to the original recipe, you should make your dilution water have the same sugar content as your original water.

 

[IslandLizard]

Don't forget to adjust the honey you added for sweetness.

Thank you, I forgot to mention that!^

Diluting the sample dilutes the bitterness at the same rate as the sugar/sweetness it contains. IOW, try to keep the sweetness about the same across your samples when diluting for bitterness.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Fetched some more hops today. Armed with some bramble cutters, shears, a large hook and a bucket. We must have looked like housebreakers. We stuck to picking only from the bines with the red stripes. I'll post some more pics in a moment.

Retrying the hops fresh a 1oz in a pint of water to see if they are just as bitter when fresh. I'm ridiculously excited about brewing my first beer from scratch.

We've bought some supermarket beers to have a 'school of beer' tonight too. Theakston Old Peculiar, Yorkshire bitter, Doombar amber ale, Fursty Ferret amber ale and Kentish ale. You'll totally understand that it's essential to know what to aim for.

 

[bracconiere]

if you want to know what the hops taste like...wouldn't chewing some, or making a hops tea work best?

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Making a hop tea as we speak.

 

[IslandLizard]

Making a hop tea as we speak.

To get more of the flavor and aroma you can steep some of those hops (1/2 oz wet) for 10-20' when the tea has chilled down to ~140-150F (~60-65C). At that temp bittering will be minimal, while it extracts flavor and aroma

Mind you, hops will taste differently in beer once it went through fermentation. But it gives you some idea.

 

[IslandLizard]

if you want to know what the hops taste like...wouldn't chewing some...

It won't be a good experience, it's extremely bitter, wrecking one's palate for several hours. I know, I tried a tiny piece of a hop pellet once...

 

[Mumathomebrew]

I was just wondering whether to do a mock end game for aroma. The 20 min boil leaves half a pint of bitter brown liquid that is extremely mouth curling but indeed resembles a bitter. I shall boil a kettle now for an end aroma test too and see what happens.

For the proper beer do you actually boil the beer for the whole hour? This pint sample halved its volume in just 20 minutes. The sample before that we accidently forgot and it boiled for 25+ mins and left only a quarter of the pint in volume.

We've picked about 1lb 8oz of fresh hops and have left them to dry on the aga. I'm thinking I'll have enough hops for a year if just 1oz bitters this much. I'd imagined you needed loads of hops for one beer. How wrong I am.

Question... chilled down to ~140-150F (~60-65C)?? So do you mean add the aroma hops still at boiling stage then let cool for 10 - 20 mins with the hops in?

Update. I've treated the aroma test like a stewing tea. Poured boiling water on them and letting them cool for 10 mins.

 

[bracconiere]

I tried a tiny piece of a hop pellet once...

i have also, but i found it pleasant....of course i also chew my green tobacco leaves, and love it!

 

[bracconiere]

How wrong I am.

I only use 1.5-2 oz's for a 10 gal batch....mostly just as a preservative....when i want a strongly flavored beer, i lean more towards black patent, and chocolate malts....

 

[IslandLizard]

I was just wondering whether to do a mock end game for aroma. The 20 min boil leaves half a pint of bitter brown liquid that is extremely mouth curling but indeed resembles a bitter. I shall boil a kettle now for an end aroma test too and see what happens.

You could add water to that half pint to make it a pint again, but as long as you keep track of the original volume and dilutions the end result should be the same.
Many wild hops don't have a crazy lot of bittering (%AA) such as dedicated cultivars, bred for that purpose (some at 16-18% AA and even higher).

For the proper beer do you actually boil the beer for the whole hour? This pint sample halved its volume in just 20 minutes. The sample before that we accidently forgot and it boiled for 25+ mins and left only a quarter of the pint in volume.

Yes, typically 60' boil for ale malts, 90' for Pilsner malts. Main reason is to drive off DMS.
Some are fine with 30' boils. Most bittering happens during the first 20' but it almost doubles after 60', so that lines up nicely with the boil time.
Extracts don't need to be boiled per se, but boiling is needed for bittering purposes.

You can dilute the quarter pint back to 1 pint. Or just taste as is, and dilute down from there.

We've picked about 1lb 8oz of fresh hops and have left them to dry on the aga. I'm thinking I'll have enough hops for a year if just 1oz bitters this much. I'd imagined you needed loads of hops for one beer. How wrong I am.

You're brewing a gallon at a time, not just a pint, so you'd use more hops. That pound and half wet (5 ounces dried) is probably good for 2-4 one gallon batches of Pale Ale / Best Bitter, or 2 batches of an IPA.

Example, if the tea tastes really good bitterwise at 2x dilution (1/2 strength), then for a gallon (8 pints) you'd need to use 8 pints * 1/2 strength = 4 times the hops as you used for your pint of hop tea. That's for bittering in a 20' boil (e.g., using extract) or half that (2 ounces) for a 60' boil (extract or grain-based). Then add some hops at 10' and at flameout for flavor and aroma. For hoppier tasting beers many also do a whirlpool/hopstand for 10-30' at reduced temps (80-60F). And a dry hop after fermentation.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Righty ho. Just finished the boil and the timing and it's cooling with the hops out.

Update. The verdict.
As it is = far too bitter but still drinkable, just about
Glass 1 - 1:1 water and sweetened to 1.012ish = still a bit pokey
Glass 2 - 1:1 again and resweetened = still quite bitter but balanced
Glass 3 - 1:1 again and resweetened + too insignificant

Aroma vessel still cooling (jug at back) but has lots of resinous, earthy and creamy qualities that the boiled version doesn't have.

Thank you. That was fascinating to do. Just got to work out what a gallon recipe needs.

If 1 oz to the pint is the first undrinkable boil, diluted once is 0.5 oz to the pint, diluted again would be 0.25oz to the pint and that seems about right.

So one gallon = 8 x 0.25oz = 2 oz of wet hop per gallon. Does that sound a plausible strength?

The aroma one seems ok so far at 0.5oz to the pint so the end hops would be 8 x 0.5oz = 4oz wet hop left in ten mins after flameout.

Now is dare to do I suppose. Not tonight but maybe tomorrow.

 

[IslandLizard]

I only use 1.5-2 oz's for a 10 gal batch....mostly just as a preservative....when i want a strongly flavored beer, i lean more towards black patent, and chocolate malts....

On the other end of spectrum, there are those of us who easily use a pound and a half of hops in a 10 gallon batch of NEIPA. Those are dried hops/pellets! Or some Cryo hops with twice the potency of regular hops/pellets.

 

[bracconiere]

On the other end of spectrum, there are those of us who easily use a pound and a half of hops in a 10 gallon batch of NEIPA. Those are dried hops/pellets! Or some Cryo hops with twice the potency of regular hops/pellets.

i know this, and i'm sitting in a room temp of 90f, because i'm to cheap to turn on the A/C....do you think i'd even use a gram more hops then i absolutely had too?

(and yes dried pellets, and yes super AA% ones, chinook)

 

[BruceH]

I wonder how hard it would be to make hop hash? Just guessing here but having just the lupulin would take some guess work out of how much to add due to there being no vegetable matter.

 

[Singletrack]

I just realized you found and took my hops! No worries. I want you to have them.

My step 1 would be to brew an IPA with about 2-3 lbs of these in a 5 gal batch, using them for bittering, flavor, aroma, and dry hop. That advice seems out of bounds for your preferences, so I'll stop there. However, I'm interested to read your findings!

 

[IslandLizard]

I wonder how hard it would be to make hop hash

Hop hash is the lupulin resin that sticks to the arbor of the pelletizing machine. They scrape that off. Mind you, that arbor is chilled to -30F or so, to prevent hop oil degradation during the process.

 

[CodeSection]

i know this, and i'm sitting in a room temp of 90f, because i'm to cheap to turn on the A/C....

Since I'm in the vicinity, I can attest to the accuracy of the heat. I thought 78-80F inside was warm. I would simply melt if I was in a 90F room for any length of time. I keep my office at a pleasant 72F

 

[bracconiere]

I would simply melt if I was in a 90F room for any length of time.

If i run the A/C for any length of time, my bank account melts...my bill would go from 70-80$, to 250!

 

[BruceH]

It's 59 with drizzle here.

To keep it on track I will have enough hops this year to brew with. I know what they are (one Fuggles and four Tettnager) but I will have to guesstimate at how much to use in a lager.

My plan is to make a cup of hop tea with a measured amount of hops and compare to the same weight of commercial hops with known numbers and guesstimate from there. I figure the worst thing that will happen by using my garden hops is I will have beer.

 

[CodeSection]

If i run the A/C for any length of time, my bank account melts...my bill would go from 70-80$, to 250!

I like your frugalness and being vigilant about your spending. It is a good quality to have. Too many times you read about impulsive spending during one's lifetime that leaves individuals without any savings or puts them further into debt.

Back to the topic on hand, it sounds like a hop tea is the way to go. My vet found some wild hops in the mountains near by. If he shares some, I will certainly follow what has been posted here.

 

[bracconiere]

found some wild hops in the mountains near by

are these actually 'wild' or just, past homebrewer hops....i'm sure the new renter at my old place, has hops a growin'.....my brother's house has a hops plant that grows like mad, must be a 20-30 year old plant....both, not wild but a sign...once a homebrewer passed through.

 

[IslandLizard]

So one gallon = 8 x 0.25oz = 2 oz of wet hop per gallon. Does that sound a plausible strength?

The aroma one seems ok so far at 0.5oz to the pint so the end hops would be 8 x 0.5oz = 4oz wet hop left in ten mins after flameout.

Well done! 2 oz wet sounds like a reasonable amount to bitter a gallon.

Now are those fresh wet hops still wet and in the fridge/freezer? Or are they drying now? Wet would be best, something about fresh wet hops you can't get anywhere else, but they don't last long like that.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

I've found a link to a pictorial brew day here. It makes it seem perfectly doable. I'm familiar with many as a winemaker but brewing beer is more fiddle initially.

The rest of those hops are drying now because I didn't get it together fast enough, nor had finished the tests before they started going floppy. However I shall dry, save and freeze those whilst I get the rest of the brew day equipment ready. Then go specifically to fetch some more fresh ones for the actual brew. It's only a dog walk away and there are tons there.

(BTW, if anyone wants some of these fresh hops, I'm perfectly happy to fetch you some. You'll just have to give me an addy and refund me the postage).

 

[CodeSection]

are these actually 'wild' or just, past homebrewer hops....i'm sure the new renter at my old place, has hops a growin'.....my brother's house has a hops plant that grows like mad, must be a 20-30 year old plant....both, not wild but a sign...once a homebrewer passed through.

You are probably right. He was in the Catalinas looking for juniper berries for his Juniper Porter when he stumbled on them. He wasn't in Winterhaven as he would have mentioned that. Plus, that is too high for the junipers to grow. Maybe he was around the old prison camp half way up the mountain....I'll will ask him when I see him again.

 

[IslandLizard]

The aroma one seems ok so far at 0.5oz to the pint so the end hops would be 8 x 0.5oz = 4oz wet hop left in ten mins after flameout.

Now is dare to do I suppose. Not tonight but maybe tomorrow.

Perfect! Good start.

Onto your brew...
As I mentioned before, when using extract, split the extract, use half in the boil, add the rest after the boil is done, at flameout. This will chill your wort a bit too, which is good.

I'd boil 30' with the bittering hops. Something like this:

1. Start with a gallon plus a pint of water
2. You may add the hops while heating the water
3. When the water starts to boil, turn off the heat, add half your extract, stir well until it's all dissolved
4. No syrup should be sticking to the bottom, or it will scorch
5. Bring back to a boil while stirring from time to time. Stir gently, don't beat air into it; scrape over the bottom just in case something wants to stick. A thick/heavy bottom helps preventing potential scorching.
6. Simmer an additional 20' (bringing the total boil time to around 30')
7. Add 15' hops
8. Add 5' hops
9. Flameout
10. Add the 2nd half of your malt extract. Stir to dissolve
11. Chill down to pitching temps
12. Transfer to ferm vessel
13. Pitch yeast

 

[Mumathomebrew]

You're a flipping gem. Thank you soooo much. I'll get the gear all sterilised and then fetch some more fresh hops off the green striped stems.

We went out to dinner last night with some farmer friends and I took some of the MO barley light malt with me for their comments. It turns out they feed their cows with two brewable barleys. Planet and Laureate. So he said to come and fetch some before the cows eat it all. Home malting coming next if we can make a reasonably drinkable beer with this first. Even more fun. I adore brewing stuff and especially foraged stuff.