Stout Water Profile
- Thread starter marchuk96
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Just curious about your water profile. The section of existing water profile has 0's across the board . The section of diluted water either RO or DI says 0? are you using all DI water ?
have you made this before ? 1# of barley seems like a lot.
have you made this before ? 1# of barley seems like a lot.
I can't see those pictures. Any way to upload better pictures? Maybe just a screen shot of the Bru'n Water page?
1# isn't that much. My first RIS had 1.5# of black barley in it and it wasn't overpowering.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Using 100% distilled water...I haven't made this particular recipe before but have made a stout before...in my last one I actually used 2 lbs roasted barley...it came off real roasty which wasn't a bad thing but I wanted to cut back on roast this time and have more chocolate notes come forward
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Will screen shot later when I'm at computer...sorry bout that
I was just curious because it showed 0 dilution on your screen shot , but you had the acids and salt amounts down .should come out really nice .
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
It's still very hard to read, but if I'm seeing it correctly, 15.2 grams of baking soda seems like quite a lot for a nominally 5.5 gallon batch.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
It does but in order to meet the criteria of a stout profile with just the salts the ph is way off and needs to be balanced out ..hence the large baking soda addition..its the only thing I have available to raise the ph back into acceptable range...
1. You have Victory listed as a base grain but at 28L should be a Crystal.
2. You have 9 different grains in the bill. Definitely does not need to be so complex
3. You have three crystal malts in there at over 20% total of the grain bill. I'd suggest ditching one. The CaraAmber and Victory are probably similar so ditch one.
4. Seriously fix your mineral adjustments. Get rid of all that baking soda, you are at 427ppm bicarbonate! Bring it down to a reasonable number here. Same goes for your sodium and chloride levels, reduce both of them. Not sure if you're really trying to use the London profile for your stout, but even if you are you can see your mashing water profile numbers are way high.
Rev.
2. You have 9 different grains in the bill. Definitely does not need to be so complex
3. You have three crystal malts in there at over 20% total of the grain bill. I'd suggest ditching one. The CaraAmber and Victory are probably similar so ditch one.
4. Seriously fix your mineral adjustments. Get rid of all that baking soda, you are at 427ppm bicarbonate! Bring it down to a reasonable number here. Same goes for your sodium and chloride levels, reduce both of them. Not sure if you're really trying to use the London profile for your stout, but even if you are you can see your mashing water profile numbers are way high.
Rev.
Order slaked lime on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074B8F2BP/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Be aware, use gloves when handling it as skin contact can cause burns. Also don't send the powder airborne as it can burn the throat and eyes if contacted/inhaled.
Rev.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Victory is not a crystal malt. It is a toasted specialty malt. It is not as acidic as a 28L Caramel/Crystal malt would be. But I do not know what level of acidity BW might assign to either of them, so whichever malt class selection yields the higher mash pH is the one I would settle upon if given no other choice.
I calculate 15.2 grams of baking soda in 5.85 gallons of water at roughly 408 ppm Alkalinity and roughly 497 ppm bicarbonate.
I would love to see the 30 and 60 minute mash pH results for this one.
I calculate 15.2 grams of baking soda in 5.85 gallons of water at roughly 408 ppm Alkalinity and roughly 497 ppm bicarbonate.
I would love to see the 30 and 60 minute mash pH results for this one.
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Brettomomyces
LHBS Curmudgeon
15.2g of NaOH is going to add a lot of sodium...I would use calcium carbonate
I wasn't in any way trying to comment on it's acidity in the mash. Just that he has an overly complex grain bill and that he has a bit much of crystal/specialty malts.
Rev.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I just tried several free versions of BW in the very latest stable LibreOffice Calc 6.2, and it doesn't work. Worked in LibreOffice 6.0. Be wary of updating LibreOffice from version 6.0 to 6.2.
The Libre website does say that 6.2 is an Early Adopter version. I'm guessing that its not quite ready for prime time.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
If I could possibly get you expertise on the water and heck even the recipe.. I would really appreciate it
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
i believe the victory is a specialty malt and not a crystal malt...technically there are only 7 flavor grains ..the other two,flaked grains.. are in there to help build body mouthfeel and head retention...i just cant see using and consuming something in a beer that causes skin burns and irritation as well as throat and eye burns..that sounds more lethal than beneficial...if i lower the additions of gypsum and calcium chloride to drop the chloride down and cut the baking soda...i still need to adjust the ph in which case id still need the baking soda and re-elavate the sodium and i would also fall outside the desired water profile for calcium and so4..i picked london as i have read it is a good base water for stouts..and with my brew software(brewtarget)..which i have used for many years pretty succesfully..it calculated my mash and sparge volumes to what you saw and therfore brunwater calculated much higher additions to the mash then the sparge
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Baking Soda is NaHCO3.
Unless you bubble CO2 through your water while stirring to dissolve it, most of calcium carbonate doesn't dissolve in water and merely drops out. Therefore it will not react with acidity and accomplish what you think it will. Best advice is to avoid it.
Someone needs to understand that dose is the difference between medicine and poison. Did you know that dihydrogen monoxide can kill you in multiple ways and yet its used regularly in brewing?? Adding a teeny bit of lime to your brewing water will not hurt you or the beer.
So if you're going to just ignore good advice given to you why post asking a question? The levels mentioned already are super high and need reduction. The flavor impacts will be more hurtful than having a lower pH. As for slaked lime (aka pickling lime) it's used in *plenty* of foods you eat. Did you even look at the product page? It's a culinary product used to control pH in a variety of applications. Do you use Starsan? Well you don't want to get undiluted Starsan on your skin either.
Rev.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Not trying to ignore any advice by any means... I love hearing the feedback and learning some things on here.. it is why i posted..I admit at first I didn't look at the link prior to posting but have looked at it now... was just possibly hoping for a resolution to fix the problem without having to purchase anything else and use what I had available... it is obvious I will have to ditch the baking soda for the lime...I am also assuming that the lime addition will be significantly smaller than 15.2g baking soda
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
6.7 grams of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) should yield just about the same acid neutralizing effect as for 15.2 grams of baking soda.
But I still contend that something is likely wrong when the suggested addition levels are this high for a 5.5 gallon batch....
What is the predicted mash pH without any baking soda or pickling lime (also called slaked, or calcium hydroxide) added?
But I still contend that something is likely wrong when the suggested addition levels are this high for a 5.5 gallon batch....
What is the predicted mash pH without any baking soda or pickling lime (also called slaked, or calcium hydroxide) added?
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Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
pics too small to see anything.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
If you don't want to get the lime, that amount of baking soda is fine (i've used comparable amounts and it's come out very well on the other side).
In general your water profile is good. I would personally lower the bicarbonate. I typically target a profile in this range (bicarbonate as high as you have gives a weird minerally mouth feel I find):
125 Ca
5 Mg
50 Na
100 SO4
150 Cl
250 Bicarbonate
As far as the recipe, like others, I would recommend simplifying it. You by no means have to, i'm sure this will turn out a nice recipe, but 1 crystal malt is fine (probably the 80, I personally love 120), one of either munich or vienna, no need for unmalted barley. You can probably get it down to 6 malts without much effort.
Best of luck!
In general your water profile is good. I would personally lower the bicarbonate. I typically target a profile in this range (bicarbonate as high as you have gives a weird minerally mouth feel I find):
125 Ca
5 Mg
50 Na
100 SO4
150 Cl
250 Bicarbonate
As far as the recipe, like others, I would recommend simplifying it. You by no means have to, i'm sure this will turn out a nice recipe, but 1 crystal malt is fine (probably the 80, I personally love 120), one of either munich or vienna, no need for unmalted barley. You can probably get it down to 6 malts without much effort.
Best of luck!
If you want to avoid all the baking soda or lime additions, dont add the roasted malts until the end of the mash, after conversion is complete. Set up the spreadsheet with base and non-roasted specialty malts to get a good target mash ph. In last 10 minutes or so add the roast malt, by then the drop in ph should not impact conversion.
Alternatively, you can cold soak the roasted grain and add the liquid to the boil. I think there are several threads on this topic, and claims are a much smoother roast flavor without harshness.
Alternatively, you can cold soak the roasted grain and add the liquid to the boil. I think there are several threads on this topic, and claims are a much smoother roast flavor without harshness.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
4.51 is the predicted ph with my target being 5.5 to 5.6 with only gypsum and c.c. added...i tried adjusting it with the pickling lime and was able to drop the sodium level but it jacks my bicarb level to 600 and my calcium level to 282...it calculated 8.1g of pickling lime into the mash to get me to a 5.54 ph
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Thank you...i just wish i could get it to work...the prob i am having is getting that bicarb level down low without also having either extremely high sodium or calcium levels...while my result on the first stout i did were fairly good i did experience what you are talking about when you said minerally mouth feel and even some saltiness...that beer also had a high bicarb level and sodium level because i just went with the large baking soda addition that brunwater calculated for me...this is what is driving me to make this one better and change what i did previously...how did you achieve those numbers?? also i wanted this to be real full bodied with a nice creamy head on it which is why i added the flaked barley...you think i should leave it out?? and the vienna and munich are my base for the stout...i should cut one of those tooo?? thank you and all for the feedback...i just want to nail this thing!!!!!
I'm at work so I don't have much time to mess around, but I pulled this up. Add one more gallon of mash water as I've done below. Your grain to water ratio will be 1.5 quarts per pound, likely better for such a large grain bill anyhow. I would suggest to stop worrying about having to be at 5.5 - 5.6pH. This below should get you about 5.4pH although I suspect it will come out a little higher. Keep in mind Bru'n Water, or any calc for that matter isn't 100% accurate so it could still be 5.5 or 5.6. You just don't know for sure until you take a pH reading with a meter.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Think of it this way. If for baking soda only 427 ppm of bicarbonate is required to bring the pH up to 5.5, then why should it take 600 ppm of slaked lime induced bicarbonate (a misnomer, since there is no carbonate species present within slaked lime, but lets bypass that for now) to accomplish the same thing? As I've been saying, something is wrong. (I also disagree with 427 ppm bicarbonate for 15.2 grams of baking soda, as I see it as 497 ppm, but lets also bypass that issue for now)
I'm trying to get you to think this through logically as well as mathematically....
Now lets focus on that predicted 4.51 pH before adding any baking soda and/or slaked lime addition. There are only a small handful of caramel/crystal and deep roasted malts which have stand alone mash pH's in DI water that go below 4.51 pH. And base malts are closer overall to about 5.7 DI_pH, and flaked oats are in the pH 6's. So logically it is only possible to mash at 4.51 pH if your entire recipe (or grist) consisted of something like 100% black barley (DI_pH ~4.59), plus some downward pH shift due to added calcium and/or magnesium mineralization. Your grist is not 100% black barley.
Again, the exercise I'm presenting here is to think this through both logically and mathematically.... And again, something is wrong. Think outside of the box. What is the source of these problems?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Now lets look at the effect of adding 1 extra gallon of water to the mash and thereby raising the pH from 4.51 to 5.37.
Water is essentially pH neutral (which is why it is chosen as the preferred carrier within which to analyze the effect of so many chemical reactions, in that it stays out of the way of the reactants and doesn't interfere with them). So where is all of the caustic which is required to move the mash from 4.51 pH to 5.37 pH coming from, if not from the water? Did it just magically appear from nowhere, or is something wrong?
Water is essentially pH neutral (which is why it is chosen as the preferred carrier within which to analyze the effect of so many chemical reactions, in that it stays out of the way of the reactants and doesn't interfere with them). So where is all of the caustic which is required to move the mash from 4.51 pH to 5.37 pH coming from, if not from the water? Did it just magically appear from nowhere, or is something wrong?
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
Dude you got me...I have no explanation of what could be wrong other than I am just presenting what these programs are giving me as guidelines.. which is why I am posting for help
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Bingo! You have nailed it here without even realizing it.
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
I do not have a water report for my tap water...I have just always used distilled... early on I did use spring water but never my own tap water...I can tell you it is highly chlorinated though...I do have a meter(cheaper) but it has broken...in the past when it worked the calculations from brunwater seemed to match up very close to what i was reading so I just stop using it
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marchuk96
If you brew it...they will come!!
So your saying brew target and brunwater don't work right??
I cant speak of numerous brews with brun water but I'm 3 for 3 with brun water . The projected ph was on the money .
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I've never tried Brewtarget. Is it giving you the same pH adjustment advice as for BW?
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