Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[Bassman2003]

It seems you might be chasing your tail a bit. I see no need to keep on buying things to solve this unknown issue. "A little cardboard" is pretty tough to track down. As you stated, many of us never have taken crazy steps around oxidation and have had pleasing results. You could only wish for the taster to be knocked down by something.

The new kettle will be a focal point when you start drinking the new beers brewed in it. Hopefully they will be improved.

 

[mprowland]

It seems you might be chasing your tail a bit. I see no need to keep on buying things to solve this unknown issue. "A little cardboard" is pretty tough to track down. As you stated, many of us never have taken crazy steps around oxidation and have had pleasing results. You could only wish for the taster to be knocked down by something.

The new kettle will be a focal point when you start drinking the new beers brewed in it. Hopefully they will be improved.

There's nothing left to buy!
I'd say the bitterness is more apparent than the "cardboard".

 

[crusader1612]

Bitterness on the back ned suggests to me that maybe your hops aren't quite top notch - either that, or theres a fermentation issue, which is separate to any of your equipment.
If you brewing with Us-05, watch your temps, and make sure you do a D-rest early. also make sure your pitch rates are right, if you don't do this, your beer will never improve.

to be fair any "clean" yeast like Us-05 of 001 can give off diacetyl (this is what I think your getting) US-05 is just pretty known for those types of flavors, as it doesn't always manifest itself with butterscotch. it can end up tasting more bitter than you'd expect, and a slight sweetness, which could also explain your "cardboard" flavor (sherry is also common with oxidation, so some sweetnes would be present.

 

[brewcat]

I finally received some feedback from someone who can legitimately critique beer. There were two off-flavors they could pick up; 1. bitterness on the back-end 2. "a little cardboard" profile.
They questioned the alpha acid in my bittering hop and my water source; the water seemed hard. In this particular recipe, I used 1oz. of Northern Brewer and .5oz. of Cascade at 60 min. As far as water, I'm stumped. I've made this recipe 4 times now; 2 with purchased spring water and 2 with "built" water using Bru"N water spreadsheet. The water always tasted great, yet the results have been the same all 4 times.

The cardboard profile leads me to believe there is oxidation of some sorts. I'm somewhat careful with hot-side aeration and very careful with cold-side aeration. I currently drain my wort from a Speidel fermenter into a purged keg. I purge before and after. With my next batch, I'm going to "push" the beer into the keg. I'm also going to fill the entire keg up with sanitized water and "push" it all out insuring the entire keg is filled with CO2. Hopefully this helps. I'm skeptical though, I know many who don't take these precautions and make excellent beer. Again, we'll see...

Maybe the recipe is no good? Or you don't like the recipe? I kind of think something may be off in your recipes. Have you put any of them into recipe software, accounting for your system?

I still like the idea of trying a kit. I know Northern Brewer has both all-grain and extract of same recipes. I think a comparison may yield some better results.

 

[ZmannR2]

I wouldn't use spring water. Find a bottled water that uses a municipal source and filters from there.

Also I agree use a recipes from somewhere. I recommend trying AHS

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

I finally received some feedback from someone who can legitimately critique beer. There were two off-flavors they could pick up; 1. bitterness on the back-end 2. "a little cardboard" profile.
They questioned the alpha acid in my bittering hop and my water source; the water seemed hard. In this particular recipe, I used 1oz. of Northern Brewer and .5oz. of Cascade at 60 min. As far as water, I'm stumped. I've made this recipe 4 times now; 2 with purchased spring water and 2 with "built" water using Bru"N water spreadsheet. The water always tasted great, yet the results have been the same all 4 times.

The cardboard profile leads me to believe there is oxidation of some sorts. I'm somewhat careful with hot-side aeration and very careful with cold-side aeration. I currently drain my wort from a Speidel fermenter into a purged keg. I purge before and after. With my next batch, I'm going to "push" the beer into the keg. I'm also going to fill the entire keg up with sanitized water and "push" it all out insuring the entire keg is filled with CO2. Hopefully this helps. I'm skeptical though, I know many who don't take these precautions and make excellent beer. Again, we'll see...

mp...I have to admit that I'm a little surprised that the off flavors mentioned didn't match up with what you were describing. It's not a problem...but interesting. It sounds as though you weren't getting off flavors as I was picturing


hmmmm...

 

[brew703]

I'm glad I never had the issues you are having. I would have given up long ago. I commend you for moving forward and trying to find the issue.

I've read your posting since inception. I can't recall if someone mentioned buying either a RO system or a single or dual carbon block .5 micron filter set up to see if that may help with your issues?

I would also stop using spring water- I started out with that and my beer always produced a strange off flavor.

I then went to using filtered water from one of those stand alone machines (the ones that cost $1 for 5 gallons). That worked for me but I recently switched to using 1/2 filtered and 1/2 distilled. I also use a half campden tablet dissolved and added to the filtered water. With that and adding gypsum/calcium chloride per Bru N Water has helped a lot.

My next setup will be a single or dual carbon filter setup mentioned above.

Good luck. Hopefully your current brews turn out great.

 

[skraeling]

call me lazy, but I use hose water haha. really do need to at least start carbon filtering I think.

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Ok, I have had a number of beers turn out much hoppier than I have desired. I believe overhopping occurs more often than not with all-grain brewing especially with full volume boils. This is because Alpha Acid isomerization increases when gravity is lowest at the beginning of the boil. I'd like to suggest you reduce hops usage by 20% and see what happens. Also, keep using that pH meter to mash in the proper range and also acidify your sparge water as appropriste for the style just to eliminate any potential astringency issues that may come into play. But my first guess is you need to back off on the hops. Good luck and you are going to win this battle, don't give up! We are pulling for you!

 

[crusader1612]

Ok, I have had a number of beers turn out much hoppier than I have desired. I believe overhopping occurs more often than not with all-grain brewing especially with full volume boils. This is because Alpha Acid isomerization increases when gravity is lowest at the beginning of the boil. I'd like to suggest you reduce hops usage by 20% and see what happens. Also, keep using that pH meter to mash in the proper range and also acidify your sparge water as appropriste for the style just to eliminate any potential astringency issues that may come into play. But my first guess is you need to back off on the hops. Good luck and you are going to win this battle, don't give up! We are pulling for you!

Actually a good point. Although I like hops so I'd just reduce the bittering charge morthan anything else.

I ran a blind pig cloen the other day, and reduce from 1oz to 3/4 oz and its perfect for my tastes. hoppy but not bitter.

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Actually a good point. Although I like hops so I'd just reduce the bittering charge morthan anything else.

I ran a blind pig cloen the other day, and reduce from 1oz to 3/4 oz and its perfect for my tastes. hoppy but not bitter.

Thanks Crusader, I agree as well. Reduce bittering hops only by 20% and you might be closer to the AA range your palate is looking for. Cheers and let us know your results!

 

[ikaris]

This is a very vague issue. When I started out my 1st few batches came out "plasticy" tasting. I found the problem to be my fermenter that was a plastic bucket I bought off some old homebrewer. The plastic was old and coming off into my beer. Started using glass carboys and my problem was solved.

 

[SnowRaven]

Agreed

I now cold crash only in a Corney (under LP Co2)
and close transfer by a Carboy Bung (pipe Clamped) with a SS Cane and apply CO2 Pressure

Until I get my hands on a SS Conical next year then I will still use ~1 PSI a LP Propane Reg and crash

= 1 Year Shelf life on Pils/Ales and 2 year on 5% Darks

okay a quick calculation ... mind you, I've had a few ..... but first, as I mentioned above, open cold crashing is like have a conveyor belt delivering air into your fermenter. There is the initial air drawn in as the head spaces cools then as gas disolves into the beer, the partial vacuum in the headspace continues drawing in more air.

So open cold crashing is way worse, the soluability limit of 02 at 34 F is ~.07g per kg of beer. If you were to leave your beer at crash temp long enough to reach equalibrium, it's the equalivent of exposing your beer to a headspace of 1.25 gallons of atmospheric air. How long to reach equalibrium, that's a different calculation, but I'd bet your at least half way there in 3 to 5 days.

2 inches in a corny, might be what, 1/6 of air gallon, and of course in a corny, purging resolves even this much smaller amount.

Agreed, mimimize anywhere you can based on your setup

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

That's great shelf life. I generally consume within 3 months. I've heard some of the guys with 6 to 8 keg keezers mention long shelf lives as well

Agreed

I now cold crash only in a Corney (under LP Co2)
and close transfer by a Carboy Bung (pipe Clamped) with a SS Cane and apply CO2 Pressure

Until I get my hands on a SS Conical next year then I will still use ~1 PSI a LP Propane Reg and crash

= 1 Year Shelf life on Pils/Ales and 2 year on 5% Darks

 

[Bassman2003]

Any update on this thread? Hopefully some success?

 

[mprowland]

Any update on this thread? Hopefully some success?

Since my last update, I've made a Raspberry Wheat and an IPA. Both were fairly good. I just kegged a brown yesterday. This is the type of beer that has always turned out bad in the past. I'm also making a hefeweizen tomorrow, which has also been bad in the past. The beers that have been decent in the past have been raspberry wheat and an IPA. I made these last to try and boost my morale back up before I made anything else. On a side note: I accidentally left my wort chiller outside for the night which was ruined when it froze. I now have a stainless steel replacement. I have now replaced everything that touches any liquid. Most of the stuff I replaced because I wanted to upgrade and some for troubleshooting purposes. I should know more in a week or so. Thanks for asking!

 

[Bassman2003]

Keep us posted and best of luck.

 

[mprowland]

Just thought I'd give an update: I just tried a brown that I kegged....and it's bad. I'll probably end up dumping it actually. My friend made this exact same recipe with water from his softener and it was great. Side by side there is no comparison. So to date: I've tried different types of purchased spring water, well water and built R.O water. Every piece of equipment I have has been replaced. I've done everything I can to reduce oxidation, I now have a fermentation chamber that keeps temperatures within 1 degree. I believe the problem HAS to be in my process. I'm going to try this recipe again using extract. I'm hoping this will eliminate half of the potential issues. More to come

View attachment July_2012-Bells_Babies_Brown.pdf

 

[skraeling]

Just thought I'd give an update: I just tried a brown that I kegged....and it's bad. I'll probably end up dumping it actually. My friend made this exact same recipe with water from his softener and it was great. Side by side there is no comparison. So to date: I've tried different types of purchased spring water, well water and built R.O water. Every piece of equipment I have has been replaced. I've done everything I can to reduce oxidation, I now have a fermentation chamber that keeps temperatures within 1 degree. I believe the problem HAS to be in my process. I'm going to try this recipe again using extract. I'm hoping this will eliminate half of the potential issues. More to come

Why does the brown taste bad? Can you describe it? Does anyone else think its bad or just you?

 

[treacheroustexan]

You should send me a bottle of the brown. Experimental purposes. I'l pay shipping.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Can you send a bottle of both?

 

[mprowland]

Why does the brown taste bad? Can you describe it? Does anyone else think its bad or just you?

I can't quite tell what it tastes like. I know that any nuttiness, chocolate or roastiness cannot be tasted. My wife tastes the same thing I do. My friends batch of the exact same recipe was infinitely better than mine. I could pick his out 10/10 times.

 

[skraeling]

I can't quite tell what it tastes like. I know that any nuttiness, chocolate or roastiness cannot be tasted. My wife tastes the same thing I do. My friends batch of the exact same recipe was infinitely better than mine. I could pick his out 10/10 times.

so just bland if anything? Are both batches bottled? Was one kegged one not?

curious where if any the processes differed.

 

[motosapiens]

I can't quite tell what it tastes like. I know that any nuttiness, chocolate or roastiness cannot be tasted. My wife tastes the same thing I do. My friends batch of the exact same recipe was infinitely better than mine. I could pick his out 10/10 times.

Have you tried brewing side by side with your friend? Just take all your crap over to his garage, and both of you brew the same day.

 

[kh54s10]

This thread amazes me. I have read through most of it, responded some, and analysed it a little. I cannot identify anything obvious. I have brewed for 6 years and have only made a couple that were bad and those were extreme. Only one of those has not been drunk, it is being used for cooking.

The OP has made all the obvious changes and gone far beyond without success. This is a real mystery. I certainly would have given up by now.

I don't know??? I haven't found brewing to be very difficult. I would compare most of my homebrews with commercial brews in the mid price range - equally, and better than a lot of them.

 

[mprowland]

I would say there is a bit of tangyness that covers up the other desired flavors. Both my batch and his batch were kegged. In the past I have kegged and bottled the same batch with the outcomes being the same. I have not taken my equipment over to my friends. He lives 70 miles away and I drive a Volt so logistically this is a pain in the ass!

 

[mprowland]

I don't know??? I haven't found brewing to be very difficult. I would compare most of my homebrews with commercial brews in the mid price range - equally, and better than a lot of them.

This is the frustrating part, the process seems really simple, especially when you've done it 35+ times! I think making an extract batch of the same thing will help with the troubleshooting process. I'm looking at trying again this Friday.

 

[BrotherGrim]

Late to the party, but did you say you are in primary for 4 to 5 weeks? If so, you may be tasting autolyzed (not sure on the spelling?) yeast. Dead yeast gives a funky taste. Have you tried racking to secondary or checking gravity to determine when you are done with fermentation instead of waiting that long?

 

[mprowland]

This last batch I left in the primary for 2 weeks and then transferred to a keg. Its been in the keg for almost 2 weeks now. I know most beers should get better with age. My browns, stouts and porters get worse with age.

 

[ba-brewer]

I would say there is a bit of tangyness that covers up the other desired flavors. Both my batch and his batch were kegged. In the past I have kegged and bottled the same batch with the outcomes being the same. I have not taken my equipment over to my friends. He lives 70 miles away and I drive a Volt so logistically this is a pain in the ass!

What yeast are you using? Some are known to produce some tartness.

Do you do any other fermented products in your house like sour dough bread or yogurt?

Maybe share your latest recipe. If you have soft water and a lot of roasted grain you might end up with a lower ph.

edit: never mind the recipe comment I looked back a page and found it. Does not look like too much dark malt.

 

[kh54s10]

Late to the party, but did you say you are in primary for 4 to 5 weeks? If so, you may be tasting autolyzed (not sure on the spelling?) yeast. Dead yeast gives a funky taste. Have you tried racking to secondary or checking gravity to determine when you are done with fermentation instead of waiting that long?

4-5 weeks is not nearly long enough to produce autolysis. Even if that is an issue with homebrewing. There is a very large percentage of homebrewers that routinely ferment for 4 weeks or so every time.

When I started I did all my beers for 3 weeks, then life got in the way and many of them went to 4 weeks or so. Not one "bad" one in all of them. (some were not great, but that was my recipe not the time.)

 

[dallasdb]

This has got to be one EPIC TROLL!!!

I've browsed the thread on and off.

Have we seen any pictures from the OP to prove this isn't a ruse?

No offense, it is just really hard for me to believe you've done all this and still can't brew a decent beer.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

sorry I haven't read the entire thread, but have you tried bottle conditioning some of a batch, and kegging the rest. i've heard some horror stories that can be traced back to a nasty CO2 tank with machine oil in it or something like that.

 

[steveoatley]

The OP is in Lansing Mi.

Is there any HBTer's near by - can run over an take a taste?
Help a brother out ??

I'm in Berkley,Mi. about 1.5 hrs away - 1 way...

There's gotta be someone from HBT that could run over some Saturday

Help a Brotha` Out ??

Any one in Lansing Mi ?

Steve

 

[bbohanon]

35+ batches and still bad beer with extract kits and trying all the advice you have been given on this thread?

If so, its over for you. Quit brewing and sell your gear. Seriously. Find a new hobby that you can succeed with and send your buddy extra money to buy more kits to brew so he can supply you with his beer.

"A mans GOT to know his limitations" - Dirty Harry

 

[mprowland]

This has got to be one EPIC TROLL!!!

I've browsed the thread on and off.

Have we seen any pictures from the OP to prove this isn't a ruse?

No offense, it is just really hard for me to believe you've done all this and still can't brew a decent beer.

No offense taken, but I promise you this is not an EPIC TROLL. What pictures do you want to see? Any Brown, Porter or Stout I've made has been bad to horrible. If I spent money on any of my beers at a bar, I'd be upset. Lighter beers have been okay to decent. I've sent bottles a couple to people here on the site. Granted, they said it wasn't horrible, but they could definitely taste what I've been tasting.

 

[mprowland]

35+ batches and still bad beer with extract kits and trying all the advice you have been given on this thread?

If so, its over for you. Quit brewing and sell your gear. Seriously. Find a new hobby that you can succeed with and send your buddy extra money to buy more kits to brew so he can supply you with his beer.

"A mans GOT to know his limitations" - Dirty Harry

I have never used an extract kit, that's why I'm looking at using one now. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd be surprised if you've had any success in life with an attitude like that. Maybe you haven't?

 

[dallasdb]

No offense taken, but I promise you this is not an EPIC TROLL. What pictures do you want to see? Any Brown, Porter or Stout I've made has been bad to horrible. If I spent money on any of my beers at a bar, I'd be upset. Lighter beers have been okay to decent. I've sent bottles a couple to people here on the site. Granted, they said it wasn't horrible, but they could definitely taste what I've been tasting.

But seriously, this would be one hell of a ruse.

I'm sure most wouldn't even be mad, they'd be impressed!

 

[Red_Dog]

I haven't read all the posts, so I hope i'm not repeating this. Are you using a gram scale and is it on the gram setting? Could your water salt containers be miss labeled, these would make big differences.

 

[PlexVector]

I would say there is a bit of tangyness that covers up the other desired flavors. Both my batch and his batch were kegged. In the past I have kegged and bottled the same batch with the outcomes being the same. I have not taken my equipment over to my friends. He lives 70 miles away and I drive a Volt so logistically this is a pain in the ass!

I got what I could call a hard to explain tangyness when I got in a hurry on a batch and turned the heat on the kettle too soon with not enough wort. I was also FWH'g and must have scorched the hop pellets and the wort. It was somewhat drinkable, but life is too short to drink bad beer. It was almost like carbonic byte with a harsh twang. It took me a month of reviewing my process over and over until that little mistake bubbled up.