Steeping grains plus hop additions

[Aggie10]

In my pursuit of a short efficient brew day, I realized that the time to steep specialty grains and the time that I hopstand are similar, usually 25-30 minutes. So, I was thinking why don't I move my hopstand additions to the steeping period, that is pre-boil, in order to significantly shorten my brew day?

I'm wondering what effects this method (kinda like mash hopping but in extract application) may have in terms of hop utilization and perceived bitterness components?

It may help to know my LME extract brewing process:

1. partial boil
2. add any sugars or 1 lb DME (as required)
   
3. add steeping grains in bag to cold water
4. bring up to steeping temperatures, hold temp there for total 25-30 minutes from cold water start
5. remove grain bag
6. bring to boil, then immediately flameout
7. add all pellet hops in bag as a hopstand (I bump up total amount to correct for iso-alpha utilization of boiling for x minutes)
8. stir occasionally, then remove hop bag at 25-30 minutes
9. add all LME and stir
   
10. add wort to carboy mostly filled with campden treated water
11. stir and check temperature (its always in the 68-75 F range)
12. pitch dry yeast and let it do its thing.

 

[Dgallo]

In my pursuit of a short efficient brew day, I realized that the time to steep specialty grains and the time that I hopstand are similar, usually 25-30 minutes. So, I was thinking why don't I move my hopstand additions to the steeping period, that is pre-boil, in order to significantly shorten my brew day?

I'm wondering what effects this method (kinda like mash hopping but in extract application) may have in terms of hop utilization and perceived bitterness components?

It may help to know my LME extract brewing process:

1. partial boil
2. add any sugars or 1 lb DME (as required)
   
3. add steeping grains in bag to cold water
4. bring up to steeping temperatures, hold temp there for total 25-30 minutes from cold water start
5. remove grain bag
6. bring to boil, then immediately flameout
7. add all pellet hops in bag as a hopstand (I bump up total amount to correct for iso-alpha utilization of boiling for x minutes)
8. stir occasionally, then remove hop bag at 25-30 minutes
9. add all LME and stir
   
10. add wort to carboy mostly filled with campden treated water
11. stir and check temperature (its always in the 68-75 F range)
12. pitch dry yeast and let it do its thing.

No, whirlpooling hops and then boiling the wort will be 100% counter productive. You will be turning those whirlpool addition to boil addition and lose everything you gained in the whirlpool.

If you’re looking to speed up an extract ipa day, here is the thread for you
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/blasphemy-no-boil-neipa.660389/page-5#post-8733582

 

[Aggie10]

Ok, will check that thread out.

So, are you saying if I skipped the "6. bring to boil" step and went from steeping temperatures straight to "9. add all LME" then it work?

 

[Dgallo]

Ok, will check that thread out.

So, are you saying if I skipped the "6. bring to boil" step and went from steeping temperatures straight to "9. add all LME" then it work?

You should be pasturizibg your lme, not just water.

 

[bleme]

Ok, will check that thread out.

So, are you saying if I skipped the "6. bring to boil" step and went from steeping temperatures straight to "9. add all LME" then it work?

I have done this and it did work. There are added risks, but I believe they are minimal.

 

[IslandLizard]

2. add any sugars or 1 lb DME (as required)

Who said "as required?" There's no use, it's actually counterproductive adding sugars or other fermentables before or during steeping grains.

bring up to steeping temperatures, hold temp there for total 25-30 minutes from cold water start

No, after reaching steeping temps (150-170F) they should be steeped for 20-30 minutes to get most extraction:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2009/03/22/steeping-grains-for-extract-beer-brewing/

After removing they can be sparged (rinsed) too, if certain precautions are taken.

They can be steeped at lower temps, but it will take much longer. When temps are too low, they may not give full extraction.

 

[Aggie10]

Agreed LME pasteurization will reduce risks, but I am willing to take that risk as I believe it is minimal.

Perhaps "required" should have been "as per recipe".

Agreed re: steeping time for max efficiency, but for sake of speed I am willing to sacrifice some efficiencies and to increase ingredient amounts ex. hops.

So, back to the original question, if I change the process above to:

1. partial boil
2. add steeping grains in bag to cold water
3. add all pellet hop additions in second bag
   
4. bring up to steeping temperatures, hold temp there for total 25-30 minutes from cold water start (but 20-30 minutes at steeping temperatures is best)
5. flameout
   
6. remove grain bag
7. remove hop bag
   
8. add all LME, DME, sugar and stir (slight increase in infection potential with no pasteurization)
   
9. add wort to carboy mostly filled with campden treated water
10. stir and check temperature (its always in the 68-75 F range)
11. pitch dry yeast and let it do its thing.

I still like idea of adding any DME or sugar earlier so there is pasteurization during steeping (I am less concerned with LME caused infections), so what is realistic tradeoff in steeping and hop utilization efficiencies vs. risk of infection?

 

[bleme]

steeping (I am less concerned with LME caused infections), so what is realistic tradeoff in steeping and hop utilization efficiencies vs. risk of infection?

Risk of infection is pretty small - dependent on yeast choice and pitch rate, etc.
Efficiencies is dependent on how much water you are using but is pretty significant, especially on the grain end. I think the last time I did it, using 2oz of Cascade, BeerSmith predicted I would get 5 more IBU if I added the DME after the steep.

 

[IslandLizard]

Re: Revised non-boil "brew" schedule.

Technically it isn't "brewing" until you've reached boil temp. But that aside.

Have you calculated how many IBUs you'll get from your 30' low temp hop steep? What is your highest steep temp going to be, and for how long? How long does it take to get there starting with cold water?
If the water is only going to be at 150F (or 170F?) for 10-15 minutes out of 30, chances are you're not getting a lot (or enough) of bittering unless you're using fairly large amounts of hops such as whirlpool/hop stands in hoppy IPAs and NEIPAs.

Since you're doing partial boils, with cold water "top up," bringing the relatively small amount of water to a (near) boil wouldn't take all that much more time, me thinks.

How big is your batch?
How much water are you actually heating?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's go back to the beginning:

In my pursuit of a short efficient brew day, I realized that the time to steep specialty grains and the time that I hopstand are similar, usually 25-30 minutes.

"Good, Quick, Cheap"? Looks like you have decide to pick two: "good and quick".

What about doing an overnight cold steep of the steeping grains? You'll need some additional grains; the flavors may not be exactly the same.

Another approach (common in home brewing kits from a number of retailers) is to add the steeping grains at flame-on and remove them when the temperature gets to 160F-ish. Again, you may need a little more grain and the flavors may not be the same as for a 30 min 150F-ish steep.

Either one of these approaches will minimize the amount of time it takes to get from flame-out to boiling.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There's no use, it's actually counterproductive adding sugars or other fermentables before or during steeping grains.

How to Brew, 4e, chapter 1 (extract, partial boil with late malt additions) steeps the steeping grains in a small amount of wort (step 4 on page 11).

 

[Aggie10]

Typically I boil 6 L for a 22L batch

And, yes I agree I can't get good, quick and cheap...I'm ok spending more on grains and hops.

I've done the steeping grains in at flame on and remove at 160F method, and I can make that work. But what about adding all or most of my hops as well at flame on, then removing when I remove grain bag or take hops up to a boil?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But what about adding all or most of my hops as well at flame on, then removing when I remove grain bag or take hops up to a boil?

If the hops are added at flame-on, when the wort/water gets to around 160F, it's starting to kind-of look like a first wort hop addition. But the final outcome might depend upon how much time it takes to get from 160F to boil [link] and also depends on the rest of the brewing process.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

See also: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/reverse-hopstand.672917/