Spunding for dummies

[whovous]

I will describe what I've done and what I plan to do, and hope someone can tell me if I am getting off the track at any point.

I started a SMASH on Sunday with Avangard Pilsner Malt, YCH Cryo-Mosaic hops, and Imperial Dry Hop yeast. OG was 1.058. Targets are 6.1% ABV and 61 IBUs, so naturally I named it Highway 61 Revisited. I accidentally pitched at about 78F (package says 67-72), but my fermentation chamber got the temp down to 68 fairly quickly.

I reset to 70F on Tuesday and dry-hopped on Wednesday when the hydrometer read just a hair under 1.030. I will not see the brew again until Saturday afternoon.

I bought this Gov Reg Dispensing Regulator for $25 at the AHA shindig in Portland:
http://www.itwprt.com/us/gov-regulator.php
It is pre-set at 12psi and I did not spend the bucks on the ability to adjust it. They represent that it will hold this setting indefinitely or until it is adjusted.

Assuming my beer is not already done fermenting when I get home tomorrow, I want to transfer from my Catalyst conical to a keg when I have 6-10 points of fermentation left to go. I will do some sort of O2 purge to the keg before transferring, but figuring out the whole O2 free transfer thing will have to wait for another brew. I plan to leave as little headroom as possible in the keg. I also plan to throw a Clear Beer gadget into the keg so that my first draw will be trub-free.

The folks from ITW said to take a quick-connect from a keg, attach about a foot of thick-walled tubing with a clamp, and then clamp the Gov Reg device to the other end of the tube.

I will attach this assembly (note, no gauge of any sort here) to the out port of the keg and put it back in the FC to finish fermenting at 70F. Assuming I do all of this on Saturday or Sunday, I will wait until Wednesday to do a gravity check. I guess I will need to de-gas the beer to get an accurate reading.

Assuming the beer is done, I will then cold crash at about 35F for about three days.

How does all of this sound?

Now that I have typed all of this out, I see I have another question or two. If this winds up under-carbed, I know I can always top it off with tank CO2. So, let's assume I get the carbing right. Now what? Do I use this natural pressure to serve, like a "real ale" with gravity service, or do I attach a CO2 tank to serve? Assuming the latter, at what pressure do I serve?

 

[eric19312]

I don't think you will get the carb right. 12 psi at 70F will at steady state is about 1.4-1.5 volumes of CO2. 2.5 volumes would be about 28 psi on your spunding valve.


Edited to add: actually I don't know what that device you linked to does. My answer above applies to ordinary spunding valve. Maybe it will work wish their website had a video or something showing it in action.

 

[whovous]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the device does, either. Their target market is tap lines in pubs and breweries, where "set and forget" has some real appeal. They said 12psi was proper for spunding, but I did not ask the many follow-up questions that occur to me now. If I take the temp to, say, 40F, then 12psi would give me a lot more volumes of CO2. Only problem is that 40F would make my yeast go dormant, so I'd never reach 12psi.

I'm going to try it unless someone convinces me this will ruin my beer. I can always use the CO2 tank if this does not get me where I want to go.

 

[eric19312]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the device does, either. Their target market is tap lines in pubs and breweries, where "set and forget" has some real appeal. They said 12psi was proper for spunding, but I did not ask the many follow-up questions that occur to me now. If I take the temp to, say, 40F, then 12psi would give me a lot more volumes of CO2. Only problem is that 40F would make my yeast go dormant, so I'd never reach 12psi.

I'm going to try it unless someone convinces me this will ruin my beer. I can always use the CO2 tank if this does not get me where I want to go.

Be sure to come back here to post your results I'm curious.

 

[whovous]

I will probably dial the temp back to 67F, although I doubt it will be enough to make a difference.

 

[FunkedOut]

12psi @ 40*F would give about 2.5 volumes. that's probably the target for the serving implementation.
to get fully carbonated beer, you could've gotten the adjustable one.
the other option is to ferment under the 12psi pressure then try and predict when the last few points of attenuation are left and remove the device.
some people simply use no pressure to ferment and then cap the fermenter to get the last few points to provide carbonation.
with a 12psi head start, you'd be waiting later.
worst case, if you miss the mark, you'll be partially carbonated.

 

[whovous]

OK, the light bulb is nearly on. It looks like I conflated a couple of ideas here. I've never tried spunding before, but I am almost new to kegging as well. I've done only enough batches to figure out that 12psi is about where I want to be when I force carb my beer. So, when the vendor said the valve could be used for spunding, and that it was preset for 12psi, I decided that it was all that I needed and completely disregarded that forced carbing at 40F would be quite different from spunding at 70F.

So, what is my best choice from here:
1) I don't think I should go lower than Imperial suggests, so I could simply spund at 67F and 12psi. This will give me undercarbed beer, but will it give me the superfine head that I've read spunding provides? I can add CO2 from the tank if I want to.
2) Assuming I can catch the brew with about six points left, I could simply transfer to the keg and let it finish with no valve at all. This is not likely to blow up, is it? I realize that I could wind up seriously overcarbed here if I decide I have six points left and the yeast decides I have twelve points left.
3) I can let the yeast do its work and then force carb as usual.

Which should I choose? I want to learn spunding, but not at the expense of a full batch of beer.

 

[Dland]

It is easy to let off gas if it is over carbed, and augment spunding with forced carbonation should you shoot a little low. But it seems to me you would benefit from at least a gauge to measure carbonation level, and why not add a valve?

I found that 6 points will likely need to be off gassed some to wind up at 2.5-2.8 vols carbonation.

Picture of manual and automatic spunding valves.

 

[FunkedOut]

Agreed. A guage is your friend. You can’t hit what you can’t see.
An adjustable valve is less than $10.

That said, from your 3 choices...
3 doesn’t learn you anything so dismiss that one.
2 is better. even if you mess it up, you don’t lose any beer.
If it’s over carbed, you can fix it with a little time.
If it’s under carbed, you’re at choice 1.

The keg will not blow up as long as it’s safety pressure release valve works. Most release at 90psi while the keg can hold 130psi.

As far as deciding when to seal it off, I’d use the guage rather than a gravity reading.
It’s easier and simply a different measurement to corolate.
- try to corolate the amount of CO2 that will be produced by measuring SG and estimating how many remaining points will be converted

Or

- try to corolate the amount of CO2 that will be produced by measuring how quickly the CO2 production is slowing down. towards the end of fermentation, CO2 production slows down considerably before it stops. A guage is your friend here.

 

[FunkedOut]

My post above assumes you are fermenting in a vessel capable of holding pressure.
If that is not the case, disregard the part about using the guage to decide when to seal it off.

 

[whovous]

Ahh, last things first. I got home from a few days away to find I was already down to 1.013, which means I have about two points left. Also, I cannot keg before tomorrow in any case, so I'll likely be completely finished by then. I've already pulled the dry hop bag and empty the jar at the bottom of the fermenter. I will probably simply transfer to the keg tomorrow and cold crash. My first adventure in spunding will have to be another brew.

It is really sad how life can get in the way of brewing sometimes.

But back to the subject. I've read a lot about spunding valves leaking and generally being a problem. Gauge accuracy seems to be an issue as well. That is why this very different sort of valve I am using appeals to me. There is almost nothing that can leak, and when it is set it is set and it is accurate within 0.5psi. If I hadn't been an idiot and conflated my preferred pressure at 40F with the pressure on this preset valve that I planned to connect at 70F, I think this would have been a perfectly fine idea. I don't need a valve if I am confident it is going to do exactly what I want it to do.

That said, I will probably break down and spend the extra money on the ability to reset this valve. The kit comes with two more valves, so I can spund with one and serve with one or two others.

One other thing - my fermenter is not designed to hold pressure at all. I normally run a blow off tube out of the lid, but if I put a solid bung in that hole, I am pretty sure it would pop out before very much pressure built up at all. At least I hope it would, because I don't doubt it would otherwise find a way to crack and make a real mess.

Thanks to all for furthering my thinking on this subject. Maybe next time I'll get more control over my brewing schedule.

 

[kmarkstevens]

please update as I need a spunding setup

 

[whovous]

It turns out the Gov Reg device is precisely the wrong thing for spunding. It permits gas to flow up to a preset pressure level, making it the perfect tool for for a multi-keg serving set-up. It would let all gas escape from a spunding set-up. What is needed is a check-valve that only permits gas above a certain level to escape.

This little device is not adjustable, and is pre-set to check at 10psi:

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/In-Line-Check-Valve-P4510.aspx

My one experiment with it and some naturally fermented cider failed when I attached it to the output rather than the input, but it works for others. As for me, my schedule seems to always have me pitching the yeast and then going away for a week. Fermentation is virtually over when I return, and there is not much value to spunding with only a point left to ferment. But this is the fault of my schedule and not of the device.

 

[Dland]

please update as I need a spunding setup

Spunding set ups pictured in post 8 work well and were easy to make. They are basically the same, a keg gas tap, a gauge and a valve. The difference being the variable pressure releaf valve in one, and manual valve in the other.

 

[whovous]

Spunding set ups pictured in post 8 work well and were easy to make. They are basically the same, a keg gas tap, a gauge and a valve. The difference being the variable pressure releaf valve in one, and manual valve in the other.

Very true, but the device in #13 is $5.00!

 

[Dland]

Very true, but the device in #13 is $5.00!

I would find the 10 PSI on that one limiting, as I like to run it up to 30+PSI at cellar/room temp for 12-13 PSI cold crashed.

 

[whovous]

Very true. The $5 toy does one thing only.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I'm going to start fermenting and serving out of a keg soon, and I plan on using a Spunding Valve. They have pre-made assembly's on ebay for about $27 or so, and I've seen them on Homebrew Finds. I plan on sticking it on as soon as I add yeast, setting it for ~25 PSI (at about 65 degrees), and it should hopefully be carbonated about 2.3 volumes by the time it's ready to be served. I'll probably need to tinker with it a little bit, but that should get me most of the way there.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@CarolinaMatt I just ordered one of these guys from Atlantic Brewing to kick off my own spunding efforts. Looks pretty close to what @Dland showed above.

I saw an add here on homebrewtalk saying you get 15% off the first order by entering promo "no BS" (Didn't work for me, but I can't remember if I have ordered before or not).

I've done keg carbing by adding 1/2 cup sugar to 5 gallons in the keg a couple of times. No side by side comparison or triangle testing, but all attempts were mighty tasty. That said, it was kinda hit and miss as started out as over carbed, then pretty good, then under carbed, and I hit it with CO2 as the liquid volume dropped. Anyhoo, spunding seems a pretty good way to go. I'll ferment most of the way in a primary, rack it off to a keg (pre filled with CO2 to avoid oxygenation), and practice to hit the right garage temp as it finishes out/naturally carbonates, then overnight in the fridge and hopefully a mighty tasty, naturally carbed keg o' goodness.

 

[jmcquesten]

Here's a spunding manifold that can be used for multiple kegs. There is a bit of a learning curve when using these. Gotta make sure you have plenty of head space and I've found it's better to wait on spunding until after the active fermentation has slowed down some.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

@CarolinaMatt I just ordered one of these guys from Atlantic Brewing to kick off my own spunding efforts. Looks pretty close to what @Dland showed above.

That's actually a really good deal. I may have to order one. I wish I lived a little closer to ABS, because they have great prices. I stopped in about a year ago and it was a nice shop.

It looks like it screws right into a disconnect, which is nice. Although I don't think I have enough height in my chest freezer / fermentation chamber, so I'd have to rig up some tubing so that it drops to the side.

 

[pvpeacock]

Just made two spunding valves myself. Don't know why I didn't do this earlier given that I regularly carbonate naturally in the keg.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@pvpeacock that looks really nice. Can you share links to your components? If you had posted a day or two earlier, I might have followed your DIY. Anyhoo, assuming spunding works for me, then I HAVE to get at least a second keg and a second spund. Maybe I will DIY second time around.

 

[Spin711]

Here's a spunding manifold that can be used for multiple kegs. There is a bit of a learning curve when using these. Gotta make sure you have plenty of head space and I've found it's better to wait on spunding until after the active fermentation has slowed down some. View attachment 635967View attachment 635968

Do you have a parts list available? Mainly the gauge, four way, and shut offs? Thanks!

 

[pvpeacock]

Gauge: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QXX5IWI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Pressure Relief Valve: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007GDY3CU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Brass T fitting: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQUTBS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Flare fitting adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008E5CUFG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then, all you need it teflon tape + a gas disconnect.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I used a cheap regular from Menards to make my spund valve for about $10. I already had the quick disconnect and hose.

This is a regulator with the quick disconnect on the low pressure side. The high side is plugged. The over pressure CO2 vents via the regulator.

In this case I have it to the max, plan to dial it back once it hits something over 16psi. Typically I preset it with an empty keg that's pressurized. I turn up the gas to 30 psi on my draft CO2. Then connect the spund and dial it back until it vents and the pressure drops, giving it a quarter turn to stop it at my set point. Then I'm ready to put it on a keg to spund beer at that pressure.


More details to follow...

The regulator is $4.99 and the 0-60psi gauge was $3.99.

It comes with 0-200psi gauge which is too big for spunding.

I just repaired the links here... If these stop working go to the Menards website and search pressure regulator. Any home improvement store that sells supplies for painting equipment or compressed air tools will have these. Maybe not this cheap. They'll do the job.

https://www.menards.com/main/tools-...2917.htm?tid=-5239484310645308479&ipos=18

https://www.menards.com/main/tools-...2917.htm?tid=-5239484310645308479&ipos=22

Recapping the pieces left to right.

1) 1/4 NPT Brass plug, screwed into the high pressure side. Using Teflon tape.
2) The regulator and gauge.
3) 1/4 NPT to 3/16 Brass hose barb, screwed into the low pressure side. Using Teflon tape.
4) 3/16 Hose about 12" long, attached with hose clamp (on both ends).
5) 3/16 barb to 1/4 Female Flare Swivel.
6) Quick Disconnect ball-lock that has 1/4 flare.


All of the parts; regulator, gauge, plug, pipe threaded barb and hose, with exception of the disconnect and ss swivels are available at Menards.

 

[kmarkstevens]

 

[cyberbackpacker]

@Schlenkerla how does your spund set-up vent excess pressure? Does that regulator have a build in prv?

 

[Schlenkerla]

@Schlenkerla how does your spund set-up vent excess pressure? Does that regulator have a build in prv?

You are correct. It has a built in prv. That's partly how it regulates pressure. Specifically when you adjust the regulator.

This is how I set mine. The knob on the regular locks by push/pull. You unlock by pulling the knob. I have an empty keg with 30psi on it, I attach spund valve and the gauge will show 30, despite the pressure set-point may be at a max of 300 psi. If I dial back the pressure by turning the knob it will vent through the valve until it reaches equilibrium. Assuming I back off the setting enough. You can see the needle on the gauge start to drop as the pressures releases. Then you can turn the pressure back up to stop the venting and set the pressure. You can hear the venting. It's quite obvious as it vents say from 30 psi down to 15 psi or lower.

It takes time to vent so adjusting with a 1/4 knob turn is a good idea.

This explains the function of a self venting regulator.

 

[Schlenkerla]

For those of you reading this thread....

 

[Alex4mula]

Just a heads up on the cheap ($5-$6) pressure gauges. Not only they may not be accurate but also if you drop them or hit them a little hard with something they get damaged. Last time it happened to me I bought this TapRite one but time will tell how much better it is. With all things made in China now it is very difficult to gauge quality just by price when a 66% increase is still $10 :-\

https://www.homebrewing.org/Taprite-0-30-PSI-Gauge-RHT_p_5381.html

 

[pvpeacock]

I can't speak to their longevity, but I will say that the gauges I bought feel pretty solid with metal cases (not plastic).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...c=1&tag=homebrewtalk_skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Alex4mula]

I can't speak to their longevity, but I will say that the gauges I bought feel pretty solid with metal cases (not plastic).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...c=1&tag=homebrewtalk_skimlinks_replacement-20

A plastic one for sure I would skip. Never seen one plastic other than bike ones.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just a heads up on the cheap ($5-$6) pressure gauges. Not only they may not be accurate but also if you drop them or hit them a little hard with something they get damaged. Last time it happened to me I bought this TapRite one but time will tell how much better it is. With all things made in China now it is very difficult to gauge quality just by price when a 66% increase is still $10 :-\

https://www.homebrewing.org/Taprite-0-30-PSI-Gauge-RHT_p_5381.html

I bought the Menard's set up when the Beverage Factory made me wait 12 weeks and still had no expected ship date so I said eff it. The idea hit while I was at Menards and saw the cheap gauges and regulators. I was sick of waiting. Said what the hell $10. Cheap considering the Beverage Factory wanted at $38+tax and shipping. It was low risk if you ask me.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just a heads up on the cheap ($5-$6) pressure gauges. Not only they may not be accurate but also if you drop them or hit them a little hard with something they get damaged. Last time it happened to me I bought this TapRite one but time will tell how much better it is. With all things made in China now it is very difficult to gauge quality just by price when a 66% increase is still $10 :-\

https://www.homebrewing.org/Taprite-0-30-PSI-Gauge-RHT_p_5381.html

That's still a pretty good deal. My El Cheapo spund solution was out of necessity. I was really tired of getting no answers for an expected ship date from the online vendor. So it was really easy to just use a regular and retrofit it with a 0-60 psi gauge.

This is also a good low cost solution for somebody who wants to tinker and see the benefits of spunding.

Worth noting, after chilling my kegs, I connect just the serving line and dispense beer until it needs CO2. Then connect the gas.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Schlenkerla How much of a keg do you dispense before you need to add CO2?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm guessing maybe 3-4 beers could be up to 6. I never really counted. I think that's rather close.

I think it depends on how full the keg was. The fuller, slightly more, beers as air space is compressible.

 

[cmac62]

Schlenkerla, that looks like a fairly simple DIY, as I am mechanically challenged. LOL. I'm going to look into this for sure. I want to be able to ferment and serve in the same keg. How much head space is required to ferment in a keg?

 

[cmac62]

Here's a spunding manifold that can be used for multiple kegs. There is a bit of a learning curve when using these. Gotta make sure you have plenty of head space and I've found it's better to wait on spunding until after the active fermentation has slowed down some. View attachment 635967View attachment 635968

This seems like a sweet setup also, as I usually have more than one beer fermenting at the same time. Maybe I can work it out with a splitter and the Schlenkerla's rig?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Schlenkerla, that looks like a fairly simple DIY, as I am mechanically challenged. LOL. I'm going to look into this for sure. I want to be able to ferment and serve in the same keg. How much head space is required to ferment in a keg?

That I can't tell you. I don't ferment in kegs. I think @schematix does. Maybe he'll chime in here with an answer for you.