Spike... I need a conical
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Olive Drab
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Is the conical body coming from China?
Dcpcooks
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Yes
This was forwarded to me by our Marketing Director Kyle and I felt compelled to personally respond.
I on the behalf of everyone at Spike we need to apologize for the conical release. This project has the largest project weve ever taken on. The conical re-design was something that I have been wanting to do for about 4 years. Last year we finally had the capital and people to take it on. We've tweaked the design many times along the way and made it compatible with the litany of accessories we'll be releasing. US manufacturing is something that is ingrained in our company's business model. Many of the components are made in the US. This however has caused issues. For example, the lid clamp is made in Ohio. We originally were quoted 4 weeks for the clamp we needed but that quickly changed to a 8 week sample time and 8 week production run. However we were not going to back away and move that production overseas. We also had a local independent engineering firm look over the drawing and approve for pressurization. This took much longer than scheduled and completely halted developent but I will not put our name on a product that is unsafe for our customers.
At the end of the day it's been a botched release and we fully understand that. At this point all we can do is fall on our sword, release the conicals and beg for forgiveness. Support from our customers has helped us almost triple our staff in 1 years time. Most of our new hires have been welders and fabricators which is something Im proud of. It's been crazy around here and we can't wait until the conicals are out so people can really see what Spike can do!!
-Ben
I on the behalf of everyone at Spike we need to apologize for the conical release. This project has the largest project weve ever taken on. The conical re-design was something that I have been wanting to do for about 4 years. Last year we finally had the capital and people to take it on. We've tweaked the design many times along the way and made it compatible with the litany of accessories we'll be releasing. US manufacturing is something that is ingrained in our company's business model. Many of the components are made in the US. This however has caused issues. For example, the lid clamp is made in Ohio. We originally were quoted 4 weeks for the clamp we needed but that quickly changed to a 8 week sample time and 8 week production run. However we were not going to back away and move that production overseas. We also had a local independent engineering firm look over the drawing and approve for pressurization. This took much longer than scheduled and completely halted developent but I will not put our name on a product that is unsafe for our customers.
At the end of the day it's been a botched release and we fully understand that. At this point all we can do is fall on our sword, release the conicals and beg for forgiveness. Support from our customers has helped us almost triple our staff in 1 years time. Most of our new hires have been welders and fabricators which is something Im proud of. It's been crazy around here and we can't wait until the conicals are out so people can really see what Spike can do!!
-Ben
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the Note. What is the current release timing? Also, your note kinda says USA manufacturers and engineering services let you down....but your going to stick with them anyway.
Rewarding US companies, who can't compete on a global basis, in the long run, hurts more then helps the economy of the United States. Demand excellence to get excellence.
Rewarding US companies, who can't compete on a global basis, in the long run, hurts more then helps the economy of the United States. Demand excellence to get excellence.
augiedoggy
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Huge difference is SS brewing doesnt make there stuff. Its all ordered from chinese manufacturers like most of the other homebrewing sized conicals avaliable on alibaba like the ones glacier and brewerhardware and the like sell as well. The SS conicals appear to be from the same makers that make the bru gear conicals if you look closely they are VERY similiar.
augiedoggy
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unless spike changed something they stated previously that the conical tank is made in china but the ports and other components are added stateside along with finishwork.
dthompson79
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I believe from what I have seen of the limited information they have released this is still the case.
I contacted customer service last week and was told end of May/beginning of June. Hopefully this is the case
I really keep telling myself it will all be worth it and it seems like they have taken their lumps on this release.
I will give it this latest release window and after that I will likely look elsewhere.
Until they are en-route and we have tracking we are staying tight lipped.
I wouldn't say US companies let us down. US manufacturers don't usually move as quick as their Chinese counterparts. It is a very complicated landscape that is ever changing. The decision to source abroad because of a longer lead time isn't a route we would take as a company. It might cause longer lead times up front for development but once we're rolling and our supply chain is in place we should be good to go. The 10's of thousands of dollars that support US manufacturing is well worth it in our eyes!
Our freight is booked but until the shipment is en route to us we are staying tight lipped. Sorry about delay!
Thanks for the update, get some of those 20 gallon kettles in too please.
You guys need to quit buying so many kettles so we can keep up with demand then!!
JK! Thanks for all the support!! HBT has been awesome to us
All i know is i will be placing an order as soon as it is released....holding tight for spike!
brewmeister13
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I'd emailed a few weeks ago about pressure rating of these and was told that there were headed out that week for testing. Any results yet? and, if not, will they be made redly available on your website when they are? Also, how far behind the 14 gallon conicals do you anticipate the 7 gallon ones?
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I hate to split hairs and I dont mean any offense to Spike, but if you're trying to differentiate Spike's supply chain model from ours by saying that they DONT order from Chinese manufacturers and they make their own "stuff", you are misinformed.
Spike also sources their vessels from Chinese manufacturers, as do most other equipment suppliers, as you pointed out. Their kettle and conical body will be made and welded in China. I think the difference you mean to point out is that their fittings and accessories might be sourced domestically, and/or installed domestically.
Cheers,
Michael
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
That's just Auggie ... he seems to hate chinese made products ... chinese stainless steel and california homebrew equipment suppliers more the those in the midwest. Not saying he likes the midwest suppliers, just hates them less
augiedoggy
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Sorry if I wasnt clear but I believe I stated here and many times over that spikes as well as some of blichmans and pretty much everyone elses kettles for that matter are chinese sourced. But that basic stamped kettle or tank is not the finished product by any stretch. Chinese labor is super cheap and a product completely built there would be much cheaper and quicker.
The difference here is the finished product is made here meaning each piece is gone over and extensive quality control is checked as the ports area are measured out and added as well as the stand, lid and whatever else is fabricated and added here in the states. Plus we know that he is responsible for at least some of the engineering contracted to different firms and done in the states.
I honestly dont know your system or if you engineer your products or just supply idea and concepts to the chinese manufacturers or have the engineering done yourself but im fairly sure that at least most of your products come from overseas complete and are shipped out right after you pick them up at the docks.. That can make all the difference in how long something can take to "roll out" and thats the comment I was referring to with my comment. I am not comparing your products to his only the possible reason for delays and longer manufacturing times.
spittybug
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I lost faith in Spike after they kept dangling "almost ready" in front of my face. What kind of businessman doesn't take preorders??? I was ready to throw $600 at them and get a 14gal. I got tired of waiting and frankly, the bait and switch. I was told that there would be a mid march special incentive... never happened. Then here in early May they back peddled and said the incentive would be the advertised $600 and that it would quickly go to $650. No way to do business. I wanted to buy American and was willing to pay to do so. I'm making my own HDPE conical for a third of the price....and it's American made too! Disappointed.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Um, my whole brewery is chinese based... I dont hate it. I dont make enough to pay what they want for american made stuff if I could even find it. the only thing I even bought from midwest before bud bought them was 4 used kegs for $100 and some beer kits back in the day..
I just dont like all the rebranding, markups involved with much of the chinese stuff and misleading marketing, pretending its something other than what it is being sold for 2x3 times more...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
you could have bought the american made blichmann conical.. they arent great but better than plastic.. I really dont care for my plastic conical myself..They are not sanitary (weldless fittings) and the yeast sticks to the sidewalls.
IMO spike (and SSbrewing for that matter) is trying to do what they can to make a decent profit while offering a good product at a pricepoint people are willing to pay as an alternative to the Harley Davidson of the brewing world , Blichmann. If im paying $650 for 7 gallon conicals like the blichmann, I'd rather get 2 stouts for $700 but thats just me.
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that you have a unwavering viewpoint on this. I have a colleague who is importing a single fermenter purchased via Alibaba. It looks identical to Brewers Hardware 20 gallon jacketed. He doesn't have it yet, but he's fnding out that the process is more challenging then he thought it would be. Right now, he's dealing with the paperwork to get shipped and through customs. If all goes well, he'll save 55%. On the other extreme, if it's a disaster, he'll be dealing with his credit card company for reinbursement. Most likely, this will end somewhere in the middle. He receive it, their will be a few quality related issues that he'll have to live with or deal with on his own, he'll save some money, but not as much as he expected to save, and he'll have a good story to tell.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I know exactly which conical you mean.. it actually IS the same one resold by brewers hardware.(used to come with all the accessories too vs BH). You can sometimes get them on amazon too. the smaller ones that glacier imports to sell also come from alibaba but if you go to their website they sure imply its all handcrafted in the US by them.... A member here actually asked them and they told him its not worth it to make the homebrewing ones themselves. I found the manufacturer of both of thier TC hop strainer filters in china too. Anyway... thats how a lot of things work now so. Nothing wrong with it really but its just better to be aware IMO.
I had been wanting the spike kettle for a couple of months and was hoping to have one as a graduation present. I even set the $600 aside burning a hole in my safe until i could order it. At first it was going to be mid to end of April and then May.. i have a brewing schedule i wanted to keep up with and so i reached out and found a slightly used blichmann 14g conical and got it. So far ive been happy with it but i really wanted that spike one.. i just got too impatient
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The kettle merely ships without any ports, and they install those domestically. 90-95% of the construction still happens in China. It would be an interesting analysis, but if you were to measure the seam weld running the entire circumference of the kettle, where the kettle bottom is attached to the cylinder portion. Then also measure the seam weld where the cylinder is formed. Then compare that to the amount of welding that is done stateside, I would bet that more welding is done in China than the U.S., despite the advertisements saying "Welded in the U.S.A."
From what you're saying, a significant piece of the finished product manufacturing happens here, and I know that's not the case.
Since it seems like you have some holes to fill in on how our company functions operationally, I'm happy to fill you in.
We are able to design and introduce products at a faster rate then most home brewing or pro brewing product companies because we invest heavily, in wait for it, U.S. jobs. We have an entire engineering team that is actually part of our company, that designs our products in-house, we dont utilize any outside engineering resources. Our CTO and co-founder is an engineer himself, and leads this team.
Moreover, we are using the same manufacturing partners in China since Ss Brewtech was founded. We don't purchase our product through intermediaries, and we dont jump around from factory-to-factory, Spike does on both accounts, which can cause some delays when trying to introduce a new product. We know this, because we know the factories that he is using.
Lastly, from a QC perspective, you bring up a good point. We actually have an entire team in China, 9 people in supply chain, logistics, and QC, that work directly for Ss Brewtech, not our manufacturing partners. In addition, our CEO and co-founder spends roughly 4-5 months out of the year there. No other product company either in the Home or Pro world that we know of have invested in amount of resources that we have there. We have our own warehouse space there to assemble and QC our product. Then once our product arrives in the U.S. each product is often unboxed here and rechecked in our domestic warehouse. We often pack accessories with our products, so its an easy exercise.
So if you really want to know the secret sauce of our organization, its our investment in people both domestically and overseas that care deeply about our design, engineering, quality and the home and pro brewers that we're serving. I know its probably easier for you to think its just 1-2 guys running this operation from a computer in the U.S., and buying from whatever Chinese factory we can, using their cheap labor, and then drop shipping from some contracted warehouse, but that is a complete falsehood.
Bowtiebrewery
Well-Known Member
^^^ Nice response... But I would suggest not getting into a pissing match here... errrr welding match.... either or...
Here is how I see it as a CONSUMER... Both of you make fantastic products. Both of you source your kettles from overseas (I knew this then and now) Both companies employ US based employees and are helping to bring jobs back here (THANK YOU)
As a consumer... What I want are welded SS Fittings, not weldless fittings. In MY experience, I've had bad luck with weldless over the years. Some others are more careful than I am or less of an idiot, however you want to put it. I want TC fittings that require no extra cleaning or removal etc.
Spike's service and products have been nothing but stellar for me. SS Brewing, I'm certain you make great stuff. But it doesn't address my wants as a consumer.
Am I frustrated that the conical release has been delayed numerous times? Hell yeah... Do I understand it? Yes I do. Growing companies often have supply chain issues, and especially newer companies suffer from this as they grow faster and larger than they anticipated or have the combined experience to address.
I don't fault them for it, or try to call them out on their lack of experience, because at the end of the day, they are trying to give me, the consumer, what I want and be held accountable for it.
Also on a personal note, I'm a younger guy, and Ben Caya seems to be around my age as well. I love to see young entrepreneurs succeed, and make mistakes and learn from them.
<Steps down from soapbox>
Here is how I see it as a CONSUMER... Both of you make fantastic products. Both of you source your kettles from overseas (I knew this then and now) Both companies employ US based employees and are helping to bring jobs back here (THANK YOU)
As a consumer... What I want are welded SS Fittings, not weldless fittings. In MY experience, I've had bad luck with weldless over the years. Some others are more careful than I am or less of an idiot, however you want to put it. I want TC fittings that require no extra cleaning or removal etc.
Spike's service and products have been nothing but stellar for me. SS Brewing, I'm certain you make great stuff. But it doesn't address my wants as a consumer.
Am I frustrated that the conical release has been delayed numerous times? Hell yeah... Do I understand it? Yes I do. Growing companies often have supply chain issues, and especially newer companies suffer from this as they grow faster and larger than they anticipated or have the combined experience to address.
I don't fault them for it, or try to call them out on their lack of experience, because at the end of the day, they are trying to give me, the consumer, what I want and be held accountable for it.
Also on a personal note, I'm a younger guy, and Ben Caya seems to be around my age as well. I love to see young entrepreneurs succeed, and make mistakes and learn from them.
<Steps down from soapbox>
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
From what I've seen and what I know about both of these guys they are both great resources to the homebrew community.
I doubt you'd go wrong with either of them. We are lucky to have them making cool a$$ Stuff for us homebrewers. I personally hope they all make tons of money. Then I'd love to see them pay if forward, pay salaries and be strong enough companies to survive and innovate.
I've had several email exchanges with Michael. Over the past few years. ( disclaimer I do own some 1/2 conicals) He's a straight shooter.
The guys at spike are making some nice stuff. It sucks they are experiencing delay but if you like the features of their gear you'll be happy once you open the box in the near future.
I doubt you'd go wrong with either of them. We are lucky to have them making cool a$$ Stuff for us homebrewers. I personally hope they all make tons of money. Then I'd love to see them pay if forward, pay salaries and be strong enough companies to survive and innovate.
I've had several email exchanges with Michael. Over the past few years. ( disclaimer I do own some 1/2 conicals) He's a straight shooter.
The guys at spike are making some nice stuff. It sucks they are experiencing delay but if you like the features of their gear you'll be happy once you open the box in the near future.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
double post due to site going down.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Thanks for answering the questions needed to understand your business model more. I honestly had no idea if you did the engineering or not since many companies actually rely on the manufacturers engineering teams when selling their products..
I only have one question. If you dont do your manufacturing china to take advantage of their cheap labor than why exactly DO you do it there?
And why lease extra space there to assemble and do QC work there vs doing it here?
Ok I lied I have another question...
If adding the ports and cleaning up the welds to the kettles is such an insignificant thing as you imply than why do you all charge so much more money for your kettles with them vs a chinese kettle without them? It seems its often literally more than twice the price or more for that as you say "extra 5 to 10%" additional work? That hardly seems right if thats the case?
Drumminguy81
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Not to completely derail this thread but for the record I have both ssbrewtech and spike kettles and I have to say the spike kettles are much nicer. Heavier gauge steel plus the customized welded fittings make it a much better value for almost the same money. Can't speak for the ss brew master kettles though.
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Sorry about the delay, been crazy busy around the office. Anywho, the China equation is something we started out with many years ago when we introduced the Brew Bucket. We are comfortable having gear manufactured there, and while lower labor costs and raw materials costs factor into the equation. For us, its also the access to tooling and a skilled and scalable labor force. Home brew gear is not a mass marketed cookware product sold at Macy's for example, a brew kettle or a fermenter is still a relatively niche product, that is also difficult to fabricate. So access to skilled mid-market fabricators that we can grow with is a key part of the ongoing decision. These factors on top of the pricing power and perception in the market; we just dont think homebrewers would pay 20, 30 or even 40% more for a US manufactured kettle.
We lease space in China to QC our product there because importation is a one way street. You have to ask yourself the question, if the first time a U.S. retailer lays eyes on their product is when they crack open that container door, do you really think they would send it back? I can tell you with absolute certainty that they wouldn't. Just the return customs and shipping expenses alone would be cost prohibitive.
So therein lies a huge problem with importers that have no QC presence at the product's origin. If they receive product that is poor in quality, they are essentially faced with two options; force that onto their customers, or eat it and send it off to the scrap pile. While both have inherent business risks, usually the former happens more then the latter.
Furthermore, stainless fabrication can be similar to electronics in the sense, that a domestic QC operation is merely a last line of defense to get eyes on a product before it reaches the customer. Once its here, and its defective, its too late to make any changes.
We QC in China so that any product not up to our standards can be reworked, or scrapped, before we go to the time and expense to import it.
On your question regarding welded fittings, I can't speak for any other equipment suppliers, but the price increase from our line of weldless kettles and welded kettles comes down to much more than a few welded fittings. The difference in retail price covers the added expense of the laser cut and seam welded fire box, as well as the dish bottom. The tooling to form the bottom of those kettles costs a fortune, which is one reason we haven't offered additional sizes as of yet.
If we were to simply add welded fittings to our standard line the change in retail price wouldn't be extreme in the least, however, its also the TC clamps, gaskets, fittings, etc. that also start to add up.
I guess the bottom line is that we love to buy American when we can, our Pro systems are a great example of that, the C114 sanitary pumps are made in Texas, the Midco Burner is made in Illinois, modulating steam valving in North Carolina, SEW Eurodrive we use for our rake motor is also a North American company. All of those supplier decisions come as a result of a clear cut advantage to foreign manufactured components, and we're happy disposition that money to American manufacturing for the added quality and feature set.
However, what doesn't sit well with us is advertising a product that is 90-95% Chinese made/welded, then wave the American flag and try sell it under the guise of a true American fabricated product. Or even worse, send a product in packaging without a clear cut country of origin printed on the box in an attempt to hide the true manufacturing origin. In both cases, that is deceptive business practices at best, and breaking the FCC's truth in advertising and labeling laws at worst.
Cheers,
Michael
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
After I asked about doing the QC in china it hit me that being able to reject and not pay for shipping rejects would be a good reason.
As far as deceptive marketing practices , I'm afraid that is the norm these days.. Just look at the auto industry. I think its often the customer who wants and chooses to believe what they want and prefers vendors that make that easy for them in many cases. It beats paying sometimes much higher costs for american made stuff.
Spike used to sell american made 12.5 gallon conicals from toledo metal spinning and even though the design was great (I own a chinese made clone I bought for $300 shipped) They were not very popular here because the cost was very high for a barebones conical (around $700 if memory serves me right and on sale they were still like $600). Spike also did state here that the kettle and conical bodies are made in china when asked in threads here. I believe that if they could remain competitive they would bring it all here but I do agree with your comments about the american flags implying its all american made being deceptive since most wont ask questions beyond seeing that and will imply it is. But then again, Its been working for companies like harley and GM since they started importing more of their component and products.. My neighbor didnt even believe me when I told him his chevy aveo was actually a rebranded Korean made Deawoo.. They never mentioned that at the dealership and he never thought to ask because its a chevy right?.
I was looking at anvil brewing the other day... Just heard Blichmann owns them. If thats true does that mean its american made? I doubt it. The brand and website and marketing sure doesnt imply chinese made products to me but I can find no mention of manufacturing or country of origin.
As far as deceptive marketing practices , I'm afraid that is the norm these days.. Just look at the auto industry. I think its often the customer who wants and chooses to believe what they want and prefers vendors that make that easy for them in many cases. It beats paying sometimes much higher costs for american made stuff.
Spike used to sell american made 12.5 gallon conicals from toledo metal spinning and even though the design was great (I own a chinese made clone I bought for $300 shipped) They were not very popular here because the cost was very high for a barebones conical (around $700 if memory serves me right and on sale they were still like $600). Spike also did state here that the kettle and conical bodies are made in china when asked in threads here. I believe that if they could remain competitive they would bring it all here but I do agree with your comments about the american flags implying its all american made being deceptive since most wont ask questions beyond seeing that and will imply it is. But then again, Its been working for companies like harley and GM since they started importing more of their component and products.. My neighbor didnt even believe me when I told him his chevy aveo was actually a rebranded Korean made Deawoo.. They never mentioned that at the dealership and he never thought to ask because its a chevy right?.
I was looking at anvil brewing the other day... Just heard Blichmann owns them. If thats true does that mean its american made? I doubt it. The brand and website and marketing sure doesnt imply chinese made products to me but I can find no mention of manufacturing or country of origin.
Bowtiebrewery
Well-Known Member
I'd highly doubt it. The price is much too low. When in doubt send them an e-mail and ask. If you really are interested.
panaceabeachbum
Active Member
I understand SS Micheal's perceived need to answer questions in this thread but at what point do 500 word essays become thread Hijacking or trolling? Not the interweb police , just curious
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I have to say I dont really see how its trolling in an otherwise dead thread that was started 8 months ago to vent and complain about the delay of a product release which still hasnt happened? The discussion is related to that unproductive topic really since we were discussing possibilities for the delays?
I myself think its been more productive in the last couple pages as far as useful info than the entire thread even if most of the information shared happens to be about a competitors process vs the one the thread was started to gripe about.. More information is usually a good thing? Do you think something was stated thats not true in some way? other people have been weighing in with their opinions on what they value and why.. How is it bad?
Bowtiebrewery
Well-Known Member
I also can agree with Augie on this. However, maybe it would be better if he started his own thread where he can dispel myths and rumors about their product vs Spike vs. others.
I also can understand where he is coming from. They make a great product and people like me, typically (I don't want to say badmouth) talk of a lower opinion, regarding the one feature that I don't like. Weldless fittings.
That being said. I don't think he should start admonishing the marketing practices of Spike for waving the American Flag and saying its a bad business practice and borderline false advertising. In my opinion, Home Brewers tend to be some of the most scrutinizing and anal people I've ever met (I mean that in a good way) I think the majority of the people who buy these products research the hell out of them. Only an idiot would look at Spike and see the USA flag and say "Oh yeah its made in America Baby. Buy American. MURICA WOOOO!"
Its clearly printed "Welded in the USA" If Stainless wanted to go tit-for-tat, they could wave a flag that says "Designed in the USA" similarly to how every apple device says "Designed in Cupertino, CA"
I also can understand where he is coming from. They make a great product and people like me, typically (I don't want to say badmouth) talk of a lower opinion, regarding the one feature that I don't like. Weldless fittings.
That being said. I don't think he should start admonishing the marketing practices of Spike for waving the American Flag and saying its a bad business practice and borderline false advertising. In my opinion, Home Brewers tend to be some of the most scrutinizing and anal people I've ever met (I mean that in a good way) I think the majority of the people who buy these products research the hell out of them. Only an idiot would look at Spike and see the USA flag and say "Oh yeah its made in America Baby. Buy American. MURICA WOOOO!"
Its clearly printed "Welded in the USA" If Stainless wanted to go tit-for-tat, they could wave a flag that says "Designed in the USA" similarly to how every apple device says "Designed in Cupertino, CA"
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Exactly! and "welded in the USA" can clearly be misunderstood as as made in the USA since the whole thing is welded including the kettle and conical tank (Which is actually a large portion of the welding done in china) as SS mentitioned the ports are added as well as accessories here.. Just like final assembly and paint are done on many harleys here with many foreign parts... its a very grey area and some companies like to take advantage of that to imply things..
and as far as the majority of people researching them? I HAVE seen the spike stuff being praised for being american made over and over again in various threads here and on facebook so it is in fact very misleading even though some of it is made here.. Just like a harley, even though a very big portion of a harley is now made overseas people still refer to them as THE american dream bike because of reputation and marketing but the truth is there are other bikes like victory that are more of an american product by far but they are no match for harleys marketing machine.
Hell a good portion of people also assume because SS brewing is an american company that their products are american made by them as well... The old world mentality is that usually a company makes the products they brand and sell.
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
This buy american thing... My observations is that americans buy patriotic as long as the US made are competively priced. If they have to pay 10% more, the notion of patriotic buying goes out the window.
On Spike being ridiculuosly late, he's a young guy, learning how to do business on the job ..... I give him credit for being aggressive, he'll learn and do better the next time. In fact, the current silience is evidence he's learning and it must be interpreted to mean the launch date is not certain at this point. I'm hoping it's not worse, more then 1/2 of the products on the Spike website are listed as out of stock.
On Spike being ridiculuosly late, he's a young guy, learning how to do business on the job ..... I give him credit for being aggressive, he'll learn and do better the next time. In fact, the current silience is evidence he's learning and it must be interpreted to mean the launch date is not certain at this point. I'm hoping it's not worse, more then 1/2 of the products on the Spike website are listed as out of stock.
panaceabeachbum
Active Member
Very good, was just curious.
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