Sparging

[jalc6927]

Surely this has been talked about in the past, when it comes to sparging what method do you guys use?

I'm particularly interested in batch and no sparge methods.

Pros/ cons?

I know time savings is a big one. Not sure if quality lessens with no sparge method

Thanks

 

[billl]

Everyone has their own opinions, but they all make beer. The only thing that is 100% certain is that no-sparge is the least efficient in terms of extracting sugar. (That's why most people sparge) It is faster though and requires less mess/cleanup. Personally, I mostly batch sparge, but will do no-sparge for smaller beers where the efficiency drop isn't so big.

 

[jalc6927]

Cool, thanks

I guess my next step is to understand the efficiency formulas

 

[mlafnitzegger]

Remember; when sparging you want to get up to 168f (or very close, dont go over), stir very well, and let sit 5 to 10 min before draining into BK. I batch sparge 2 times during each brew splitting my sparge water into to parts; usually 2.5 gallons first then the remainder second (3.5 gallons or so). These measurements will depend on the batch size.

 

[pvpeacock]

I like things simple, so I batch sparge as follows:
1. mash with 5 gallons of water at the desired temperature (I completely ignore the malt to water ratios);
2. drain after mashing (I use my hop spider to catch any grain that escapes, so I don't have to vorlauf);
3. determine how much wort you collected and subtract that from the desired pre-boil volume. The difference is how much water you need to sparge with.
4. pour heated sparge water into mash tun, stir and drain (using hop spider)
Done!

 

[jalc6927]

So if you use 2.5 than 3.5 to sparge, how much are you mashing with?

And

Pvp does this work with all types of brew?

 

[Nmnbrewer]

Brew in a basket with recirculating no sparge. Get 78% mash efficiency every time.

 

[doug293cz]

Here's a chart that shows how lauter efficiency varies with the grain bill weight to pre-boil volume ratio for both no-sparge and single batch sparge for a variety of grain absorption rates.



You can see that for equal grain absorption rates, the single batch sparge improves the lauter efficiency by about 8 percentage points. A double batch sparge (not shown) increases lauter efficiency about 3% over a single batch sparge.

If that were the end of the story, life would be simple, but we all know life isn't simple, and neither is this topic. When using an MLT grain absorption rate is about 0.12 gal/lb. But, when using a bag, grain absorption can be reduced by hanging the bag and letting it drain for an extended time (while heating to a boil.) Just hanging the bag and waiting can get your grain absorption down to about 0.10 gal/lb. Another option when you have a bag is squeezing to reduce grain absorption even more. A moderate squeeze can get your absorption rate down to 0.08 gal/lb, and really aggressive squeezing can get you down to 0.06 gal/lb. If you compare a no-sparge at 0.06 gal/lb vs. a batch sparge at 0.12 gal/lb, the difference is only about 2 - 3 percentage points for normal gravity beers, but for high gravity beers, the no-sparge can actually be better than sparging.

Further complicating things is any undrainable MLT volume. Undrained MLT volume has a similar effect on efficiency as grain absorption. MLT's often have a pint or more of undrainable volume, whereas if a bag is lifted, there is 0 undrainable volume.

One last factor is that with a bag you can crush finer, which in many cases leads to higher conversion efficiency. Since mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, a higher conversion efficiency can compensate for lower lauter efficiency.

So, lots of things to consider, but all options can make equally good beer. There really is no right or wrong answer when it comes to sparge vs. no-sparge. Just understand the trade-offs, and make an informed choice.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

Remember; when sparging you want to get up to 168f (or very close, dont go over), stir very well, and let sit 5 to 10 min before draining into BK. I batch sparge 2 times during each brew splitting my sparge water into to parts; usually 2.5 gallons first then the remainder second (3.5 gallons or so). These measurements will depend on the batch size.

Nope, and nope. The temperature of the sparge water isn't critical and using cool water extracts nearly the same amount of sugars as using the hot water does. Once the water is added, stir well and drain. Letting it sit doesn't do much except take more time. Hot water does decrease the time to get the wort to boil but not by much.

A single batch sparge will get most of the sugars out but there is a limit to that. A second sparge gets more sugars but takes more time. Your choice as to whether the extra sugars are worth the time it takes to get them. You could do a third sparge but there will be very little sugar extracted with this.

Once the mash is over you would drain the tun. At this point you will know how much wort is collected. With that you can quickly see how much water is needed for sparging to get to the expected pre-boil amount. If you are doing double batch sparging, equal amounts is the most efficient but in home brewing that little gain isn't really worth worrying about.

 

[jalc6927]

So what you just posted goes against just about everything written on the subject. Not that I doubt you in any,as my experience is limited.

Just quite contrary to the "normal" processes,

Have you done a side by side or any other means of justifying your post

Thanks

 

[pvpeacock]

Pvp does this work with all types of brew?

I use the same technique for IPA's, Pale Ales, Ales, Saisons, Stouts, etc. After many, many brews trying fly sparging, double batch sparging, single batch sparging and no sparge, I just settled on this technique as the simplest. While it may not be as efficient as some others, it is still efficient enough.

 

[Baabaad00]

According to this post, no sparge BIAB can and has observed efficiency comparable to those who do sparge with the correct water to grain ratio. Obviously kettle size is the limiting factor.

 

[Kent88]

I batch sparge. I have a refractometer and I keep close tabs on the gravity of the wort I collect. When I get close to 1.012 I switch to collecting in a different kettle and I check more frequently and when it stays consistently around 1.012 I stop sparging.

Be careful not to just sparge to a desired pre-boil volume. If you do that you risk oversparging when you are making a low-gravity beer, and undersparging if you are making a high-gravity beer.

 

[doug293cz]

So what you just posted goes against just about everything written on the subject. Not that I doubt you in any,as my experience is limited.

Just quite contrary to the "normal" processes,

Have you done a side by side or any other means of justifying your post

Thanks

Check out this experiment by Kai Troester comparing hot and cold water sparging. There was no difference in efficiency due to sparge temp. And it makes sense if you understand what is going on during a batch sparge. The sparge is just diluting the wort that has been absorbed and retained by the grain, so that you can run off more wort that contains much of the sugar that was in the originally absorbed wort. You are not dissolving any solid sugar, since all sugar created in the mash is in solution when it is created, so the well known effect of hot water dissolving sugar faster than cold water does not apply.

The above applies if conversion of starch to sugar is complete at the end of your mash time. In that case no additional sugar is created during the sparge. If on the other hand, your conversion is not complete at the end of the mash, then doing a hot water sparge can allow additional conversion to occur during the sparge time. This will increase your conversion efficiency, but not increase your lauter efficiency.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I batch sparge. I have a refractometer and I keep close tabs on the gravity of the wort I collect. When I get close to 1.012 I switch to collecting in a different kettle and I check more frequently and when it stays consistently around 1.012 I stop sparging.

I don't understand this in the context of batch sparging. If you stir your sparge water into the grain adequately, the wort SG will be homogeneous throughout. This means all the run-off from a batch sparge step will have the same gravity, and will not go down as run-off continues. If it does, then you haven't adequately mixed in your sparge water.

Be careful not to just sparge to a desired pre-boil volume. If you do that you risk oversparging when you are making a low-gravity beer, and undersparging if you are making a high-gravity beer.

It is possible when making lower gravity beers to get sparge run-offs below 1.010 - 1.012, but that usually takes multiple sparge steps. To get a 1.012 run-off gravity from a single sparge step requires a grain bill of less than about 5.9 lb for a 6.5 gal pre-boil volume (typical for a 5 gal batch), assuming 100% conversion efficiency. At less than 100% conversion efficiency, run-off SG's will be lower. For example if you only get 85% conversion efficiency, you can get a 1.012 sparge SG with as much as 6.7 lb of grain for a 6.5 gal pre-boil.

You want to avoid over sparging, as that can lead to tannin and silicate extraction which will have detrimental affects on the beer's flavor. However, when making large beers, it is almost impossible to avoid "under sparging." If you sparge to 1.012 on a large grain bill you will have an excessive pre-boil volume, which you will spend a long time boiling down to your target post-boil volume. The good news is that under sparging does not have a detrimental affect on the beer. The only downside is the lower efficiency.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

According to this post, no sparge BIAB can and has observed efficiency comparable to those who do sparge with the correct water to grain ratio. Obviously kettle size is the limiting factor.

My previous post in this thread quantifies lauter efficiencies for sparge vs. no-sparge. Since mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, lauter efficiency is only half of the story. High lauter efficiency with low conversion efficiency still results in low mash efficiency, and likewise low lauter efficiency and high conversion efficiency. When using a bag filter for lautering, you can grind your grain finer, which often results in improved conversion efficiency. In some cases, the improved conversion efficiency can make up for the reduced lauter efficiency of no-sparge, especially if the bag is squeezed.

Brew on

 

[Kent88]

@doug293cz thank you for the interest. Batch sparging is something I have been trying to get right for a while now.

Apparently I don't stir well, because I get different gravity readings from each running (that is, different samples in the same running). They typically aren't far off from each other, so I only check a couple times with the second runnings, but the third running (which is usually the last running), that I watch closely. I want to get several points of data to see if I should keep sparging, or if I over sparged and shouldn't add that to the rest of the wort I collected.

As for not sparging to just reach a certain pre-boil gravity. If the brewer is reading from a recipe that takes the grain bill into account when formulating the pre-boil volume then it probably is no big deal, but I've heard of people who I suspect think "oh, I just sparge to this volume for all my 1.055 OG beers, so it should work for something that I want to be 1.035 or 1.095" or even just going by what the kettle can hold. That is where I could see people running into trouble. I think of this as "blind sparging".

I have heard of formulas for how much water to sparge with that involve the dry weight of the grist and the mash water:grist ratio, but I haven't found many examples of those as most formula I find say (or perhaps I am wrongly inferring) that you just want to sparge to a certain pre-boil volume all the time with no thought given to the weight of grist that was mashed, the water:grist ratio that was used to mash, or the desired gravity of the wort.

That is a little look into my thoughts on sparging. I would be more than happy to look into any links to instructions, articles, or podcasts on the subject that you think would be helpful.

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz thank you for the interest. Batch sparging is something I have been trying to get right for a while now.

Apparently I don't stir well, because I get different gravity readings from each running (that is, different samples in the same running). They typically aren't far off from each other, so I only check a couple times with the second runnings, but the third running (which is usually the last running), that I watch closely. I want to get several points of data to see if I should keep sparging, or if I over sparged and shouldn't add that to the rest of the wort I collected.

As for not sparging to just reach a certain pre-boil gravity. If the brewer is reading from a recipe that takes the grain bill into account when formulating the pre-boil volume then it probably is no big deal, but I've heard of people who I suspect think "oh, I just sparge to this volume for all my 1.055 OG beers, so it should work for something that I want to be 1.035 or 1.095" or even just going by what the kettle can hold. That is where I could see people running into trouble. I think of this as "blind sparging".

I have heard of formulas for how much water to sparge with that involve the dry weight of the grist and the mash water:grist ratio, but I haven't found many examples of those as most formula I find say (or perhaps I am wrongly inferring) that you just want to sparge to a certain pre-boil volume all the time with no thought given to the weight of grist that was mashed, the water:grist ratio that was used to mash, or the desired gravity of the wort.

That is a little look into my thoughts on sparging. I would be more than happy to look into any links to instructions, articles, or podcasts on the subject that you think would be helpful.

Here's a couple of links on sparging that I found particularly informative, and inspired my mash/sparge simulator:
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis
And a few more on mashing that are also apropos:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

My approach to pre-boil volume targets is as follows:

1. Start with the target volume to the fermenter. Mine is usually 5.5 gal.
2. Add the expected kettle losses, from break, hop absorption, etc.
3. Add the expected boil off volume based on boil off rate times boil off time.

That gives you your target pre-boil volume. Now you need to work out your total mash water and grain bill weight based on your lauter process (sparge/no-sparge), grain absorption rate, expected conversion efficiency, target OG, and weighted average extract potential of your recipe. With a suitable mash/sparge simulator you can use a goal seek function to figure out what your total grain bill weight needs to be to hit your target OG at your target volume using your process parameters. The Priceless BIAB Calculator (advanced version) can do this for you with the "Autoscale" function if you give it a starting guess at your grain bill weight. I use my own mash/sparge simulator, which was used as the basis for Priceless' implementation mash/sparge simulation in his on-line calculator.

Brew on