Sour question

[wolves63]

I have been making beer for about 3 years now and the idea of brewing and aging sours really has started to intrigue me. I do enjoy sours beers so I do know what I am getting into as for flavor. I am thinking of putting together a sour here soon and I am wanting to age it at least 18 months.

I am pretty sure I know what I am wanting to do for the primary fermentation, and I know that I want to use a low intensity brett, but I haven't been able to decide between:
Lactobacillus Brevis
Lactobacillus Delbruekii
Pediococcus

I would like to get experiences and ideas as well as suggestions regarding your sour knowledge. Which is best without fruit, and which is best with fruit?

I will post my recipe once I figure out which strain I will be using.

 

[masonsjax]

There are lots of commercial blends that take all the guesswork out of it. Choose any recipe, mash high, keep IBUs low, pitch the blend (no starter necessary), and wait.

Pitch in bottle dregs from some of your favorite sour beers to diversify even further. Oh, and buy Oldsock's book "American Sour Beers".

Also, buy several more fermentors and make as many batches as you have space for. Once you wait 18 months, you wont want to wait another 18 months for another batch. Get a few going at least, and get new ones started often.

 

[wolves63]

The plan is to start a full sour program with multiple going at a time.

I have looked at blends, but the problem I have with them is that I would not be able to do yeast slanting as it would alter the percentages. I am wanting something I can do and keep consistency. Take the slant, run a small starter, then pitch it during secondary fermentation.

 

[stpug]

I am thinking of putting together a sour here soon and I am wanting to age it at least 18 months.

... but I haven't been able to decide between:
Lactobacillus Brevis
Lactobacillus Delbruekii
Pediococcus

I would like to get experiences and ideas as well as suggestions regarding your sour knowledge. Which is best without fruit, and which is best with fruit?

You want a long-term, aged sour beer with fruit. Barring picking a style that is primarily a lacto beer (berliner, gose, etc), I would opt for pedio given your scenario. Pedio will work on the back end after the bulk of fermentation is complete and will work in unison with Brett. Pedio has increased potential for lower pH (<3.0) than lacto (~3.2) and has a greater potential to lead to a very sour end result given enough carbon sources to work on (i.e. mash very high, 160F would be good).

However, there is certainly nothing wrong with pitching a lacto strain prior to yeast/pedio inoculation to get a head start on souring AND get a lacto strain in your bacteria bank . Brevis has a lower working optimal temperature range than Delbruckii, and has increased potential for sour character, so that might be the option I would pick. However, you'll want to keep in mind that you'll be providing much of the souring with pedio later in the aging/fermentation process and not worry too much about how sour it gets initially with the lacto.

In summary, if I was wanting to brew a distinctly sour fruited, aged beer AND I was wanting to start a bacteria bank then I would:
-Aim for ~4-5% ABV
-Expect to finish about 1.000
-Mash high (160ish)
-Pitch L. Brevis, wait 24 hours
-Pitch Sacc, Brett C, Pedio
-Age and sample infrequently

 

[wolves63]

Why pitch the L. Brevis before the sacc, brett, pedio and not just pitch it at the same time?

I have been looking around and I can't find pedio as a single culture anywhere online, any suggestions?

 

[burninator]

I think he's suggesting pitching the lacto first, to get your PH down (more souring) before pitching a lambic-style blend, which would include sacc, pedio, brett, and more lacto.

 

[stpug]

Why pitch the L. Brevis before the sacc, brett, pedio and not just pitch it at the same time?

Primarily to give it a chance to do some work upfront before the competition sets in; and, again, I would only use lacto if I additionally wanted to get it into my bacteria bank. This would be especially true if you plan on using hop bittering level in the 8-15 range (much above that and I would save the money and just use pedio) because the lacto may be inhibited and perform slower due to the bittering alpha acids.

I have been looking around and I can't find pedio as a single culture anywhere online, any suggestions?

I wouldn't know where to find it exactly but WLP661 is straight pedio (your LHBS may be able to get special single vial of it), and WY5733 is straight pedio (again, check with your LHBS). Northern Brewer and Adventures in Homebrewing both show they have the WY5733.

I'm assuming all of these are pure single strain pitches (lacto B, Sacc ?, Brett C, Pedio D) for the additional purpose of banking all of these (based on what I thought you were after).

 

[wolves63]

The plan is to keep the hops IBUs lower. I just wasn't sure why you would throw the L. Brevis in before your majority. I do want it as a part of my bacteria bank. I didn't think to add both Pedio and Lacto to get additional complexity. I think that is a great idea.

 

[wolves63]

I am looking at keeping the recipe simple and allowing the yeast and bugs to do the work for the flavor and complexity.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: T-58
Yeast Starter: No
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: L. Brevis, Pediococcus, Brett C
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.049
Final Gravity: 1.006
Boiling Time (Minutes): 30
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 7 days, 68*
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 1+ years, 68*
Based on 80% efficiency

Grain Bill:
9 lbs - Briess 2 Row
0.5 lbs - Caramel 40

Hops:
1.00 oz Tettnang 30 minute boil

Mash at 158* for 60 minutes

My plan is to pitch T-58 wait for 7 days, then rack to a secondary and pitch all of the bugs. Then let it sour for a year to 18 months, add some variety of fruit based on tastes and aroma. Age another 6 months. Will these leave enough residual sugars for the brett and the bugs? How much sourness can by doing it this way?

 

[stpug]

I think that's a perfectly acceptable route to take and your recipe looks reasonable too. I suspect this will come out very dry and sour after 18-24 months given the face that the pedio and brett will have a long time to work. I'm not sure you'll need that amount of time actually. I would definitely sample the beer after 6 months to gauge where it's at. You might find that adding fruit at 6-9 months is preferable since the fruit will give the yeasts/bacteria plenty more sources to continue their work, and fruit generally adds to the dryness and sourness of a beer. Most importantly, your schedule/recipe looks good, and you can let your nose and tongue guide you as time moves on.

 

[wolves63]

The plan was to start the tasting about 6 months in and may a call on the type of fruit (probably peach or raspberry) once I know what flavors I am going to get from souring. I have both a raspberry bush and a peach tree at my house so that will be where I get the fruit.

 

[signpost]

Homegrown fruit in a homebrewed beer? That sounds awesome.