Sour cider... Every time!

[cheyneco]

5 batches in a row now. I started an apfelwein in February and bottled it today. It was super tart, sour. I mixed a glass half and half with Apple juice and it tasted like sweet, super tart/sour/funky apple juice. Very little alcohol bite. that's how every 4 batches have gone using lanolin d47,one batch was s-05. I sanitized like crazy. A few batches were in the mid 70s, but I figured this apfelwein was done fermenting back when the house averaged low 60s in the winter/early spring.


Should I give up on cider?? Is it my temps? My recipe? I just want something crisp somewhat similar and refreshing like you find in the store, just a tad less sweet. My attempts at 5 day cider came close, but then I ran into buttery off flavors and those were fermented at much cooler temps in the 65-68 range.

My first 2 batches ever, last December and January, weren't perfect but we're 50x better than this sour stuff. Same basic recipe, Apple juice and sugar or concentrate.

 

[Yooper]

Is it "tart", like all the sugar has fermented out (because it has!), or is it really "sour" like vinegar or lemon juice?

If it's "tart", and sweetening helps a bit, then you probably want to sweeten your cider.

If it's "sour", like vinegar because it has spoiled then it's a problem with sanitation or process (like not topping up the carboy).

 

[oljimmy]

Hi Cheyneco,

This was exactly what my first experiences were like. Confused the hell out of me. Best thing I ever did was to buy a titrable acidity kit ($15). This allows you to measure the level of malic acid in the juice before and after you ferment it. The test takes 3 minutes and you then have some idea of the level of extra sweetness required to offset the acid. I've been able to construct a little table for myself, based on my own tastes:

.40-.50% malic: 1.000
.50-.60% malic: 1.005
.60-.70% malic: 1.008
.70-.80% malic: 1.013
.90-1% malic: 1.017
over 1%: pretty much undrinkable

Note that many 'desert' apples give juice that is over 1% malic, and thus they can be very difficult to work with. Anyway, that's my suggestion... it's enabled me to start making (and enjoying) my own cider.

 

[Randzor]

I had an infection that lasted 6 batches over 4 carboys. I even had on good one started after a sour one. The final thing I did to get rid of it was to bleach all my equipment. Seems to have worked.

 

[cheyneco]

It's a weird flavor. The best way to describe it is that even after sweetening it (as sweet as 1.040 one time) it's super sweet but still overwhelmingly tart or something. I've aged some of it for 5-6 months and it hasn't seemed to improve.

I do know the Apple juice I use from Sam's Club is water, Apple juice concentrate, and added ascorbic acid.

I have 4 test 1 gallon batches going now using 4 different yeast types and monitoring the temperature to keep it in the mid 60s if possible.

 

[cheyneco]

I think the common link in these batches is my hydrometer, measuring spoon, and funnel. I will try a batch in the container the juice came in and heavily wash and sanitize my airlock and see if that does anything.

 

[bernardsmith]

What is the pH of your cider? If the pH is around 3.5 or higher then I think you might simply want to allow your cider to age. The aging will very likely soften the edges of the malic acid (malic is a tart acid) and some or all of the malic may change into lactic acid (lactic acid is not nearly as sharp).

 

[cheyneco]

I back sweeten... So if I'm aging in bottles, can this age in the fridge or can I be pasteurized and still age? Or will it have to bulk age before back sweetening and bottling?

 

[cheyneco]

I just opened a bottle from April that has been in the fridge since then. It is not much better, if at all, than the day I bottled it. I don't have a pH tester.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Might not be related, but aging slows down at cooler temps. Basically doesn't occur at fridge temps from as far as I'm aware.

 

[oljimmy]

I do not find that aging a high-acid cider does much to it. I've had MLF drop a cider 15%, but that's it. I honestly don't know what people are talking about when they say that aging mellows cider significantly. I have a 2 year-old batch that doesn't taste any better. If you're working with juice that's over .8% malic, you're going to have tart cider pretty much no matter what.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Potassium carbonate

 

[frankusb]

When I used to use either apple juice concentrate or juice made from concentrate, lots (half?) of my batches came out sour. Since I switched to juice not from concentrate (I use Tree Top 3 apple blend), I have had no sour batches.

I would suggest you try some quality apple juice.

 

[cheyneco]

Thanks for the advice. So the titrable acidity kit is used to test the juice before fermentation?

I will age what I have at room temp. Will it age at all if it's been heat pasteurized?

Next batch will be tree top. Thanks for the tip.

 

[BigPerm]

You may be very sensitive to the tartness of malic acid. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but you may try a malo-lactic fermentation to soften the acids and make it more suitable to your tastes. Apple juice is pretty high in malic acid, so you may find that this helps. The malo-lactic enzyme should be available from your LHBS, or can be ordered online.

Good luck!

 

[punkrawkgeek]

I find that it is the yeast as well. I have used EC1118 for most of my other batches. This last time, i had a pack of S-04 and decided to use that. Same juice and everything. Walmart Special. Great Value 100% Apple Juice. The S-04 seems to be a lot more apple flavor. Maybe it was temps? I don't know. Nonetheless, I will keep trying new things. Have a batch on right now with S-05. We'll see how that one turns out.

 

[QuercusMax]

I've used the Sam's club and Walmart apple juices with a bunch of different yeasts (Cote de Blanc, WLP013, WLP029, S-04, US-05) and with the ones where it really fermented down dry it was very tart. I had a batch where it had a bit of a vinegary note which faded as the keg aged.

Depending on what you're doing, though, you can make a very nice medium-sweet cider with sam's club apple juice. Mino Choi has won quite a few medals using grocery store juice, and I've also had some success with it. One great thing about the mass-produced juices is their consistency; you can make the same thing time after time, and tweak your ingredients and process till you get it where you want.

 

[oljimmy]

QuercusMax is absolutely right about store-bought juice. In particular, there are constant levels of nitrogen in grocery store juice. The more "natural" or "orchard-fresh" it is, the less predictable the fermentation will be (unless it's your orchard, of course).

You can test acid in any liquid using the kits. So you can test before and after (I find that malic acid rises in cider during fermentation, from 5-15%, unless you use Lavlin 71b).

As an aside, one thing I like to do is take my favourite cider, test the SG and the acid, and then try to replicate those numbers.