Sour beer for beginners?

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beerkench

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Everywhere I read up on sour beers, it seems that everyone knows a whole lot all ready. I'm looking for some basic beginners info with grain, hop mash details and info on all the bacterias an when to add them.
Any suggestions?


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You're in the right place to get even the most basic information. On top of that, there is a wonderful book written by a man who I believe is a very active member of this site titled American Sour Beers.

Then, for some lighter reading, you can always head over to The Mad Fermentationist's site and read about brewing a sour beer:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html

I am doing a sour beer which started only as a blackberry wheat beer. It caught an infection and since then I've let it ride. I've pitched some brett dregs from commercial beers in the bucket and then bought a vial of brett and pitched that with some cherries most recently. It is officially a year old on Saturday. So you can brew as normal and then pitch bugs (what will sour the beer).

There's a wonderful article in Brew Your Own magazine about bugs. It is worth the read.
 
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I second the recommendations that Hello. gave you. The book is a great resource and the website is very helpful also.

The only problem with reading the book is that I had to go out and get several more carboys to hold all the long term sours I have been brewing lately......

Sours can be pretty easy. A simple grain bill, low hopping, and let the bugs do the work.
 
Echoing the thoughts of others - sours are easy: A simple mash spiked with a commercially available blend of yeasts/bacteria and time. . . lots of time. Since most sours do take time to complete the process, often more than a year, it's a good idea to take the plunge, buy a bunch of better bottles (or similar), and make a new batch every 6 months. In a few years you'll know how you're doing. . .
 
The madfermentationist (aka @oldsock ) is a great resource.

The funny thing is, sour homebrewing was a bit of a black hole for a long time. Oldsock and others are helping people to understand the different aspects of sour brewing and how they compare and contrast to regular brewing. You are not far behind the curve. I will try to provide a little intro about the organisms used. Generally, sours contain very little hops (often aged hops), as the microbes used are inhibited by hops. The grain bills and mash schedules are as varied as any other beer.

Accidental sour beers are usually not very good, which means that creating a drinkable sour batch requires as much planning as goes into your house ale (or more if this is a new road for you).

Unfortunately, brewing a good sour beer requires nearly the opposite of many common ale brewing practices. For example, after you boil your red rye, you would chill it to 65F and aerate with air or oxygen. For most species of Lactobacillus (the organism primarily responsible for the sour flavors), you will want to keep your wort at 100F and avoid aeration. This example is as much of a generalization as saying you always chill your wort to 65F for an ale. There is as much, or more, variability with the organisms used in sour brewing as there is with the various types of beer yeast. This can make things complicated.

One of the new trends in sour brewing is the use of a single pitch, analogous to pitching a particular type of yeast in a batch. This approach certainly simplifies a sour batch. Crooked Stave in Denver makes a lot of Brettanomyces-only beers. There could also be situations when you would just pitch a single species of Lactobacillus, then drink it directly. While easier, this approach may not make the best sour, or provide the flavors you are looking for. This is where things get complicated (if you want them to, I guess). Many sours have a balance among many different flavors contributed by multiple organisms, eg. a balance between lactic acid and acetic acid. One of the aspects of sour brewing that I find very interesting is how the vastly different microbes used in sour brewing can work together, and tend to make a better product when they are used in tandem. For example, Pediococcus (a close relative of Lactobacillus) produces a slimy booger in beer, often referred to as a "sick beer." Brettanomyces can use this gooey mixture of proteins and carbohydrates as additional nutrition, thereby cleaning up the sick beer and developing more flavors.

A way to start experimenting with making sour beers is to find a sour style you like, and work backwards. I like LaFoile from New Belgium, so last year I found a recipe for a Flanders brown, made the batch, grew up the dregs from an old La Foile batch (when they still had dregs), pitched it and let it sit for a year. It was good, definitely, but it was no where near La Foile. This approach is tricky, because you will (probably) never be able to exactly mimic the fermentation conditions used in a commercial batch. This may be analogous to wanting to make a clone of Budvar lager, which is always fermented at 45 and lagered at 34, but you can only ferment at 50 and lager at 38. The wooden vessels often used in larger breweries to make sour beers have their own characteristics based on organisms in the barrel and often, the oxygen content. So maybe some of the beauty of homebrewing sour beers, is that you own it. It is difficult for homebrewers to make consistent, repeat batches of the same sour beers. Each one is likely a little different from the next, and this can be due to a slightly higher or lower mash temperature (most of the sour bugs can eat the sugars that are unfermentable for Saccharomyces), slightly more or less oxygen (most species of Lactobacillus are anaerobic and get weird when oxygen is around), a different proportion of one bug to the other (a higher proportion of Pediococcus vs. Lactobacillus), or whether or not a type of Saccharomyces yeast was used (many Lactobacillus species to not produce ethanol, so Sacch must also be added).

Even though things can be a bit unpredictable sometimes, many of the normal brewing concepts are very relatabe and important for making good sour beers. For example, when brewing those normal ales, many influential aspects of the process are well known and thus controlled. It is well known that you can or should ferment a saison at a higher temperature compared to a lager, and that you should aerate with oxygen for 60-90 seconds, or that wheat is appropriate in some styles and not others or that noble hops belong in certain styles. These things are managed to make good beer, and the same applies for making good sours.

We may eventually get to the point of having very high quality, repeatable clone recipes for sours like we have for many other beers. Until then, you kind of have to go for it and see what your "house" can make. Find a recipe, take good notes, brew it, take notes, pitch something that you have taken notes on, then ferment it a take some notes. After a year, taste it and take some notes. Then post all of those notes on HBT.

Good luck and cheers from behind this wall o' text. :mug:
 
Wow guys, thanks for all the info! I think I will buy the book.
I have some questions:
I have some buckets that I don't use. Are these ok for aging my sours in or is a carboy better? I heard on a podcast that the larger surface area of the beer being exposed to oxygen in a bucket can cause oxidation thus making the sour beer too vinegary due to acetobacter.


Is it necessary to grow and make a starter with these cultures?
 
I have some buckets that I don't use. Are these ok for aging my sours in or is a carboy better? I heard on a podcast that the larger surface area of the beer being exposed to oxygen in a bucket can cause oxidation thus making the sour beer too vinegary due to acetobacter.
buckets are OK for primary fermentation but not longer-term storage. in addition to the large surface area, buckets are very leaky - the seal on the lid is poor and oxygen will get in.

Is it necessary to grow and make a starter with these cultures?
as a general rule, no. underpitching (yeast) is ok because there are enough other microbes in there that will take care of anything that the yeast leaves behind.
 
The real oxygen issue with buckets is slow diffusion through the lid seal and the plastic of the bucket itself. I know this isn't much of an issue with glass carboys; I can't speak to better bottles one way or the other (I'm sure the info is easy to find, but having inherited several glass carboys from friends who got out of homebrewing, I haven't bothered).

When pitching bottle dregs, I do think you want to build them up, starting out with just a couple ounces of very weak (like, 1.020) unhopped wort, because there won't be many of them, and they'll be stressed from the alcohol, long cellaring, etc. Don't know about best practice for commercial cultures; many people on this site have experienced that they take a generation or two to produce as sour/funky beers as bottle dregs, so I've just been pitching dregs from my favorite sour beers.
 
I would keep those buckets for the primary, but certainly wouldnt keep a sour in them much more than a few months. Glass carboys would be my recommendation for a secondary. Starting looking for them on craigslist or post as ad. You will find cheap ones pretty easy.

As far as making a starter, I typically wouldnt advise doing so if buying a blended sour culture. Just pitch the pack or vial with an additional strain of sacch and you will be good. I personally pitch a good dose of saach (normally belgian strain) at the same time as the bugs. I believe oldsock also recommends this in his book. As others have said, pitching dregs of good sour beers throughout the long aging process will help a lot in creating something complex and interesting.

Good luck! It really isnt as complicated as it seems. Keep researching and it will become second nature just like brewing clean beers.
 
Another issue with buckets is you can't see into the without opening the whole top, which is fool proff way to introduce oxygen. Not good when you want to check on the progress of a batch you are aging long term.
 
So I made my first step in the sour beer world yesterday! After doing some reading and listening to the Sour Hour, I decided to do a quite simple, sour wort Berliner Weisse style technique using my 25l Braumeister that has automated control.
I mashed as normal and then cooled the wort to 120f, added a hopsock full of grain for half an hour and then some lactic acid to get the wort pH down to 4.5. After half an hour I took out the sock and then flushed the top of the kettle with some Co2 and then covered it in cling film. It's now been in there for around 30 hours and the pH has dropped to around 4.1 and it smelled ok, with no off smells being noticable. It smelled just like creamy wort actually.
I'm going to boil for 20 mins with some hops after the Ph reaches around 3.3 ish and ferment with US-05.

I would like to ask your opinions on adding some dregs of a saison. I recently bought a bottle of unfiltered saison that has been fermented with both brett and sach and wondered if throwing this in with the US-05 could add any character or do you thing the dregs would contribute little to the final beer, and will I just be spoiling the broth by adding more than is necessary?
 
The thing with Brett (and, really, lactobacillus and pediococcus, too) is, it will slow down, but not completely stop, and chew away on complex sugars and other "unfermentables" and produce CO2 for months. So, unless you're kegging the whole batch and can release the pressure as it builds up, you have to be prepared to wait it out to avoid bottle bombs.

This isn't an issue with the sour mash process, because you kill all the bugs when you boil, and when US-05 seems done after a couple weeks, it usually is actually all the way done.

Now, all that being said, a lacto-only souring will usually produce a relatively clean and simple sour flavor. A little brett-y funk would pair well with this, and add some complexity to your beer, if you're willing to wait for it.
 
Ok thanks for the advice. I think I will save that bottle of Vieille De Ville Saison for another time and go for a straight US-05 ferment, just to get a feel for it.
Is it recommended to have 'Brett only' equipment when using it? Will it infect kegs?
 
There are opinions both ways.
Some very smart folks say no need to keep separate equipment because wild bugs can be killed just like anything else. Your house is already full of wild bugs!

Still others (maybe the majority) say if you touch wild beer with a piece of porous equipment such as plastic or wood, mark it, and only use it for wild beers .
 
There are opinions both ways.
Some very smart folks say no need to keep separate equipment because wild bugs can be killed just like anything else. Your house is already full of wild bugs!

Still others (maybe the majority) say if you touch wild beer with a piece of porous equipment such as plastic or wood, mark it, and only use it for wild beers .
This is kind of what I’m thinking... I guess my question would be, if I had a clean run and it got “contaminated” would it start building CO2 and could blow if in a bottle?

Thanks for this thread and thanks @tagz I had no idea about sour beer blog, which in turn allowed me to find the sour hour! A full podcast dedicated to the only beer I love and want to drink and brew
 
Yes, Brettanomyces for example ferments sugars that cannot be fermented by saccharomyces. So it is very common for bottles infected at bottling time to be over-carbonated, and/or explode
 
Yes, Brettanomyces for example ferments sugars that cannot be fermented by saccharomyces. So it is very common for bottles infected at bottling time to be over-carbonated, and/or explode
Good to know! That’s something I’m real afraid of. Definitely going to be handlingbwith care when I start doing real sours. About to buy my first jolly pumpkins today to taste a Real American sour instead of the Lacto sours that are so prevalent, can’t wait. Use some of their bottles probably for some dregs.

Question on saving dregs, can I save dregs like I would a yeast cake?
 
I save Brett cultures in mason jars at room temp and feed every 3 months. (There's never enough space in the fridge.)

You don't need separate equipment, but you do need reasonable cleaning and sanitation processes.
I use separate [plastic] fermenters, partly as a practicality, and partly because that's where cross-contamination risk is highest in my opinion.

People don't often get cross-contamination from saison yeast, kveik yeast, etc. So people are generally successful preventing contamination from batch to batch, although it does happen.
 
People don't often get cross-contamination from saison yeast, kveik yeast, etc. So people are generally successful preventing contamination from batch to batch, although it does happen.
true, but saison and kveik are sacchs*. brett and bacteria are, to a certain degree, a different ball-game.

if your IPA or stout gets a few cells of saison yeast in it, you are unlikely to notice. in the long term you might get some extra carbonation in bottles stored at room temp, maybe. but get a few cells of brett in there and you'll have bottle bombs. doesn't take much for brett to make itself felt, and brett can ferment sugars that sacch can't. brett isn't any harder to control and kill than sacch but the consequences are more dire.

bacteria are worse. bacteria cells are smaller than yeast and can hide in nooks and crannies that yeast can't. so when you have something porous like plastic with lots of places for bacteria to hide, sooner or later your star san isn't going to get everything.

*for the most part, a few kveiks have bacteria too.
 
I think you're underestimating the power of Diastaticus variant Sacc.
It can, and does cause bottle bombs.
https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ntamination-in-the-wake-of-left-hands-lawsuit

White Labs Belgian Saison II for example lists the attenuation up to 85%, as high as any of their Brett yeasts.

Belle Saison yeast is somewhat popular. Like many other saison yeasts it's a diastaticus variant that can metabolize dextrins (FG is often reported around 1.000). It also forms a biofilm, which is notoriously difficult to sanitize.

Is Brett faster at eating dextrins than these Sacc strains? I don't think so; slow attenuation is part of the reason brewers age Brett beers for months-years, even after intentionally pitching millions of cells.
Do you have info on speed of Diastaticus vs Brett to cause bottle bombs?

Bacteria are small and can hide on plastic, but they do get on your equipment regardless of whether you brew sour beer at all.
Inexplicably, our cleaners and sanitizers still seem to be pretty robust eliminating these potential contaminants -- or more likely, it could just be that the hops prevent the bacteria from growing.
sooner or later your star san isn't going to get everything.
This could be said for any batch. All brewers get contaminated batches sooner or later, right? Airborne contaminants are constantly lurking, even besides what's already on our equipment.

Separate equipment has long been the mantra for sour beer production. However, there are plenty of us that do use the same equipment, so it really must not be that risky, or that radical.

We may all have different opinions on this. Typical homebrew topic :)
 
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I think you're underestimating the power of Diastaticus variant Sacc.
It can, and does cause bottle bombs.
https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ntamination-in-the-wake-of-left-hands-lawsuit

White Labs Belgian Saison II for example lists the attenuation up to 85%, as high as any of their Brett yeasts.

Belle Saison yeast is somewhat popular. Like many other saison yeasts it's a diastaticus variant that can metabolize dextrins (FG is often reported around 1.000). It also forms a biofilm, which is notoriously difficult to sanitize.

Is Brett faster at eating dextrins than these Sacc strains? I don't think so; slow attenuation is part of the reason brewers age Brett beers for months-years, even after intentionally pitching millions of cells.
Do you have info on speed of Diastaticus vs Brett to cause bottle bombs?

Bacteria are small and can hide on plastic, but they do get on your equipment regardless of whether you brew sour beer at all.
Inexplicably, our cleaners and sanitizers still seem to be pretty robust eliminating these potential contaminants -- or more likely, it could just be that the hops prevent the bacteria from growing.

This could be said for any batch. All brewers get contaminated batches sooner or later, right? Airborne contaminants are constantly lurking, even besides what's already on our equipment.

Separate equipment has long been the mantra for sour beer production. However, there are plenty of us that do use the same equipment, so it really must not be that risky, or that radical.

We may all have different opinions on this. Typical homebrew topic :)
So you Do use the same equipment for cleans and sours? How many sours have you done? And when you say you save Brett cultures do you mean Brett cakes? And is the lid on loose or tight? Do you Only set Brett out on the counter or do you put other ones out too? Lab, ped, etc
 
So you Do use the same equipment for cleans and sours? How many sours have you done? And when you say you save Brett cultures do you mean Brett cakes? And is the lid on loose or tight? Do you Only set Brett out on the counter or do you put other ones out too? Lab, ped, etc
I keep separate plastic fermenters. That's partly as a practicality (I use a different size and have multiple batches going at once) and partly because I believe that's where risk is highest.
I use the same everything else -- bottles, bottling equipment, testing equipment, etc.
I've bottled a berliner with live lacto, a wild ale with Brett and Lacto, and meads with wild cultures (raw honey, raw fruit). I've also been working with the 6+ Brett/wild fermentations I have going right now.
I've heard from others that use the same equipment successfully, and it seems logical to me, so I figured I'd give it a try. So far so good in my case.

Here's what I have in jars:
Yeast cake from my wild ale
Wyeast 5526 B. lambicus
Wyeast 3278 Belgian Lambic Blend
Dregs from commercial sour beers and cider (containing Brett and LAB). Each bottle dreg culture gets its own jar.

I make some starter wort and add the dregs, leaving the lid loose for a few weeks until I'm confident it's finished.
When feeding I stir the lees and then remove 80-90% of the culture and add fresh starter wort. Again, leaving the lid loose for a while.
They smell like Brett or they get dumped.
 

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