Sorachi Ace - Refermenting with Champagne Yeast

[slatebrew]

Brooklyn Brewery makes an awesome saison called Sorachi Ace. The label says that they re-ferment with champagne yeast in the bottle. I was trying to put together a similar type clone recipe and was wondering if anyone had any experience with re-fermenting in the bottle.

 

[day_trippr]

Brooklyn Brewery makes an awesome saison called Sorachi Ace. The label says that they re-ferment with champagne yeast in the bottle. I was trying to put together a similar type clone recipe and was wondering if anyone had any experience with re-fermenting in the bottle.

They named their brew after a hop? Interesting. Wonder if they actually use Sorachi Ace?

Anyway..."re-fermenting" in the bottle is pretty much the norm, whether yeast is actually added or not. What's the question?

Cheers!

 

[GuldTuborg]

I was trying to put together a similar type clone recipe and was wondering if anyone had any experience with re-fermenting in the bottle.

Any example of bottling is an example of "refermenting" in the bottle, unless you specifically get rid of all yeast beforehand.

 

[bmick]

They do name it after the hop, evidently they bought up a boatload of it from Sapporo to use in one of their brews. What this is referring to is adding more yeast when bottling (there's a whole thing about whether all bottle conditioning is refermenting, blah blah blah). This is a high ABV brew, and I assume is bulk-aged for a while, which means that there will be far less viable yeast in suspension to carb the beer when you go to bottle it. Also, it's bottled in belgian bottles and caged & corked, meaning it can withstand higher than normal bottling pressures, which you'll get when you add yeast when you bottle.

 

[slatebrew]

As bmick mentioned, they do use Sorachi. I believe it is dry hopped also.

I guess my real question would be do you just add champagne yeast during the bottling process or would it make more sense to add it earlier in the process (i.e. around 75% attenuation or maybe in the secondary)? Also, would you still add priming sugar (it would seem logical that you would in order to get the carbonation)?

Thanks for your help!

 

[GuldTuborg]

I'd add it a day or two before bottling, just in case it gets around to eating any sugars that were left over by your ale yeast. There probably won't be much of this, but it's an easy safety measure against bottle bombs. Prime as usual.

 

[ShakerD]

They sell this at my local beer store and I really wanted to try it but I think it sells here for $28 a bottle.

 

[slatebrew]

Thought I would update - I just bottled my clone of Sorachi Ace. Two days before bottling I added some champagne yeast to the secondary. After two days it tasted great out of the secondary, with no additional activity noted in the airlock! I will update again once the bottled have aged.

 

[Coff]

Any update on this?

 

[TarheelBrew13]

This sounds like the same kind of marketing b.s. as when Miller calls their swill triple hopped.

 

[Coff]

Thanks for your input.

 

[Sardoman]

I'd like to point out that champagne yeast is more attenuative than ale yeasts. The consequence of this is that when bottling with champagne yeast, you need less sugar or no sugar, depending on where your gravity is and where you expect it to end up.

I think this is, in general, not a good idea for most home brewers. I would instead ferment with my ale yeast, then dry it out by pitching the champagne yeast and bottle after it hits a steady final gravity.

Of course this isn't as much of a concern if you are kegging.

 

[mewithstewpid]

i believe they only add the champagne yeast because they filter out the brewers yeast, and dont want any additional flavor contributions occurring in the bottle.

as for homebrewers, i think this is pointless. We already bottle condition. Usually extra yeast is only added after months/years of conditioning in the fermentor and we are afraid not enough yeast is left in suspension to carbonate our beer

sorachi ace saison is a great brew, tho.

 

[Coff]

I was most interested in hearing how the clone itself turned out and what his recipe was. If I were to try it myself I would not go for the champagne yeast at bottling method. I dont see why their wouldnt be enough viable yeast in this beer to properly condition it.

 

[mewithstewpid]

well here are the ingredients from the brooklyn site:

Style: Single-hop Farmhouse Saison
Malts: German two-row Pilsner Malt
Additions: Brewer’s white sugar
Hops: Oregon-grown Sorachi Ace
Yeast: Our special Belgian strain (primary); Champagne yeast (secondary)
Alcohol by Volume: 7.6%
IBUs: 34
Original Gravity: 15.7° Plato
Calories: 208 (per 12oz)
Food Pairings: Pork buns, fish tacos, shrimp, smoked salmon, sushi, prosciutto, curries, salads, grilled meats and fresh goat cheese.
Availability: Year-round
Format: 750ml cork-finished bottles and (new in 2012) draft


its a very very good beer, crisp and refreshing, but simple.

 

[Coff]

Well I was looking at the clone recipe in BYO, mostly to get an idea on the hopping schedule, and it called for 5 oz of SA at flame out...for a 5 gallon batch. Seems a bit over kill but who knows. Was curious what this guy did.

Here it is...


Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 91.7 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 2 8.3 %
0.50 oz Sorachi Ace [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 21.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Sorachi Ace [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 16.7 IBUs
5.00 oz Sorachi Ace [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 5 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Trappist Ale (White Labs #WLP500) [35.49 ml] Yeast 6 -
2.00 oz Sorachi Ace [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 7 0.0 IBUs

 

[BrewMU]

That's not hopped with Sorachi Ace exclusively is it? If so, I hope you like dill, because when the residual or added yeast in those bottles consume added fermentables, thus charging it with CO2, that's going to be some funky tasting shizznit.
Okay, now I've jumped to the last page, and I feel like an idiot, because there's the frakkin hop schedule right in front of my ding-bat face.
IMO, S Ace isn't a stand alone hop, but if you like it, go for it. Sorry to be a jerk, but has anyone else tried one? I only say this because I made a beer with S ace, much less of it along with another hop, and the dilly taste took over. On the plus side, the 1/2 # of the stuff I bought turns out to be a lifetime supply.

 

[flyingfinbar]

My local craft brew pub has this on tap, it's fantastic! A deliciously hoppy, citrusy saison. I'd love to make a clone, but that 5oz of Sorachi at flameout does seem a little weird.

 

[Coff]

The beer that were trying to clone is fantastic, I'd advise trying it out before flipping your lid. Although it sounds like you probably won't like it being that you're not a Sorachi ace fan, to each his own.

As far as the flame out addition, I was going to go with an ounce instead of the 5oz BYO was calling for.

 

[slatebrew]

Update on how the recipe went: I made the mistake of not measuring how much champagne yeast I used, but I believe it was about a half a pack. At first the beer was great! The sorachi really stood out. I entered it in a local contest for clones and got good comments back. After about two weeks it really got over carbonated. Looking back I would cut the amount of yeast in half just lightly dusting the secondary with it.

 

[Sardoman]

Slate, did you add priming sugar? I suspect the over priming has more to do with gravity points than with the amount of yeast used.

 

[Coff]

Like others have said, I dont see the point in adding Champgane yeast for bottling in this beer. If it was bulk aged for 2 years+ I would understand.

Slate, do you mind posting your recipe?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Slate, did you add priming sugar? I suspect the over priming has more to do with gravity points than with the amount of yeast used.

Right, more yeast may well make it carbonate faster, but not more than with less yeast.

 

[ChillWill]

Champagne yeast is always misunderstood it would appear.

1. It can handle higher amounts of alcohol than most ale yeast

2. It can't ferment a lot of the more complex sugars an ale yeast can.

3. It is often used to bottle condition high strength beers as it's alcohol tolerant (so you're not adding a load of yeast that'll die) and should only ferment the primimg sugar so won't over carbonate (assuming the right amount of sugar is added). It should also be quite neutral so won't change the flavour of the beer.

 

[KOELSCHKING]

7.5% is not high alcohol nor is the original gravity considerably high. Many Saison yeast stains are slow fermenting. I suspect Brooklyn Brewing, a company, is trying to turn a profit on their investment by getting their product to market faster. Adding champagne yeast to the secondary will speed up fermentation and add little character to the beer ( a slight winey flavor may come through but this is fine with a Saison).

I have used this technique on barleywines and the result is amazing. I used it on a stuck Köelsch and the result was less than perfect but better than dumping it.

 

[jtakacs]

i don't think it would be the quantity of yeast, but the quantity of fermentables. as mentioned above i'd prime with little or no priming sugar - the yeast will eat a few things that the brewers yeast wouldn't.

 

[KOELSCHKING]

I did my own version of Sorachi Ace- OG 1.065. Slow fermenting with Wyeast Belgian Saison- at 1.030 after two weeks in primary. So I added champagne yeast to secondary along with a generous dry hopping using SA hops. I kegged it this weekend after two weeks in secondary and it was at 1.005. I will lager for one month for a perfectly dry, crystal clear Saison with a full flavor and aroma of Sorachi Ace hops.

p.s. This is the best tasting beer I have ever done coming out of the secondary!

 

[MikeMMM]

I love the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace and would like to take a stab at cloning. I have never used Champagne yeast but based on my previous understanding and after reading this thread I expect the yeast to bring down final gravity as long as there are still fermentables after primary. That's about it. I'll use the Champagne yeast but I guess I still don't understand what it contributes since it seems like brewers yeast at a low mash temp would be able to handle a 7.5 abv beer. Can i expect it to add something more?

 

[brewpood]

slatebrew, I hope your brew turned out well. How did you bottle it? Regular 12 oz or bigger bottles with corks and cages? I'm getting started on this using the extract clone recipe from BYO magazine, Dec. 2011, and want to be ready for bottling day. Thanks!

 

[JosephN]

I know this thread is over 3 years old, but I'm wondering if anyone of you did the step mashing technic that I've seen posted. There is a 4 stage step mashing, 122, 149, 154, and 168F. All have different amounts of time, but the main mash is in the 149 range.