Something weird.. electric shock.. help!!

[terrenum]

Background and setup
Basic All-Grain with 3 pots: HLT, Mash and Boil Kettle. HLT and Boil Kettle each have electric element, not the mash which is HERMS with a coil going thru the HLT. The brain is 220V and also have an electric pump

Last week, I was cleaning up my electric brewing system and Therminator plate chiller so I created a loop to run the cleaning solution. I had water/cleaner in the boil kettle going thru pump to plate chiller to the mash tun and then back to the boil kettle.

At one point the element in the boil kettle was not covered by water because the flow was not setup properly and water was flowing out faster than coming in from the mash tun... Came back downstair when I smelled something weird... the element was bright red... I then added more water to the boil kettle and at the same time decided to reverse the flow in the plate chiller to better clean it.

Once everything was connected back I touched the water in the boil kettle to see if it was warming up a bit and got an electric shock!!!!

Now I am trying to understand what happened...why did I get electrocuted??!?!? could the element be damaged by running dry so it would leak electricity in the kettle... I don't think so... The only thing I can think of is when I disconnected the tubing to reverse the flow in the plate chiller, I had water coming out of my chugger pump and got all over the pump. Could it have created a short or conduct electricity via the water all the way to the boil kettle???

Any idea what could have happened? also, can you measure if there is electric current in the boil kettle by putting the multimeter probes in the water? Does it work only on dry stuff?

Any feedback would help!!! Thanks

 

[stevehaun]

It does not take long to ruin an element by dry firing it. Is your system properly grounded - kettles, control panel, stand, etc?

 

[passedpawn]

You MUST ground your pot (usually in the element housing), and you MUST have a GFCI. A GFCI will shut down your system before it shuts down you. (the breaker in the garage won't do it).

 

[Wagon_6]

Can you provide a lot more information...did you purchase the "220v brain" or build it yourself? Have you tested your GFCI?

 

[passedpawn]

ULWD incoloy ripple elements (not the SS ones, not the straight or short ones) can withstand dryfiring for 10 or 20 seconds, no problem. I doubt any of them will live long through minutes though.

 

[terrenum]

Thanks for your input/questions

The element seems to be working still.

I bought the brain and system (except kettles) from High Gravity. It is the EBS III-D

it seems to have been replaced by the following
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/Brewery-Controller-Electric-Wort-Hog-EBC-350-272p5044.htm

There is no visible breaker between the electric panel and the kettle and everything is grounded via the wires. the product description states the following:

• Fully overload protected, 30A breaker for each heat side, and 10A breaker for 120V subsystem

For the pump while I was cleaning I used a power bar that has a GFCI switch on it.

Does this help?

 

[LarMoeCur]

Is the wall outlet on a GFCI breaker? The panel will most likely have fuzes which will not protect you from being electricuted. If your brewing in your garage. I don't believe garages by code are required to have GFCI breaker.

First check the breaker. Make sure it is GFCI. If it is then test it to make sure it works. If it's not do not brew again until it is replaced.

Second pull apart the element housings and check the ground. It maybe corroded or have water/wort inside of it. Just a little moisture will cause the curret to arc.

Count yourself lucky could have easily killed you.

 

[terrenum]

the wall outlet is a 220 plug like a dryer so no GFCI on it

Dont you think it is very unlikely the short comes from the element? More chances it was coming from the chugger pump that got water on it, no?

 

[passedpawn]

the wall outlet is a 220 plug like a dryer so no GFCI on it

Dont you think it is very unlikely the short comes from the element? More chances it was coming from the chugger pump that got water on it, no?

Not coming from the pump. There is no electrical connections in the water path inside the pump - the impeller is magnetically coupled to motor, so no chance of fluids and electricity mixing.

Many shorts, such as through wort, don't result in enough current to trip the circuit breaker. Even when you stick your hand in there, and the other hand or foot is grounded, and you are being actively crispified, the breaker still won't trip. Breakers protect wires that are rated for a specific current (e.g., 30A) so they don't start on fire. A GFCI, on the other hand, will trip at 0.005 Amps.

240VAC inline GFCI's are not common. But you can find them online. Better plan is to replace the 240VAC 30A breaker on your dryer circuit with a 30A 240VAC GFCI breaker. New, these are pricey, but you can find them used on ebay at a discount. Of course, if you need to pay an electrictian, you're back into $$.

Many people buy a full power panel made for spas/jaccuzzi's. Internally, they have the GFCI breaker and everything. You can get these locally for a decent price. I didn't go this route, so I can't say much more, but I know this is a popular option.

 

[Horseflesh]

A spa panel may be cheaper but then you have to find a place to mount it, too. Either way, I would not plug that thing in until a GFCI is installed!

 

[-CHRIS-]

Came back downstair when I smelled something weird... the element was bright red... I then added more water to the boil kettle

Do you have a multimeter with a continuity setting? I am 99% sure you melted the insulation inside your element and you will find a dead short between the outer jacket and one of the conductors.

Chris

 

[processhead]

Was thinking this too. If the outer layer of the element is breached, moisture can leak inside, and create a conductive path between the energized inner element and the kettle.
Disconnect the element from the panel. Fill the kettle with water. Use a multimeter set to measure ohms and measure between the kettle and and either of the element power connections. You should be measuring infinite ohms if the element is OK. A low resistance reading indicates a current leakage path to the kettle.
Also, this would be a good time to make sure you have a solid ground connection between the element cable wiring back to the panel.

 

[BeerMakesPeopleHappy]

The heat from the element has likely damaged the insulation surrounding the inner core of the element where the current runs through. Though it's not enough to have caused a dead short (which would result in sparks and a tripped breaker), there could be a partial short allowing current to bleed through the outer sheath. Disconnecting the element wires and checking if there is resistance from power to ground will show if this is the case; however, resistance values can change depending on heat, so I'd be tempted to replace the element to be sure. As well, install the GFCI for future safety. It only takes a few milliamps to be lethal.

 

[terrenum]

Ok...
I replaced the element and the new one is working fine.

I saw y9our email after I disconnected the one that is potentially damaged.

If I immerse the old element in water (except the base and connectors of course) would I be able to measure leakage? I have a multimeter and when I set it to ohm measurement and read the element resistance I get a reading of approx. 14 which means the element is working. It doesn't mean however that it is not leaking power, is this a correct assumption?

When I put the red probe on one connector on the base and tip the black one in the water I get a reading of approx. 25. does that mean this is the problem? I should get infinite reading?

 

[processhead]

If you are measuring 25 ohms of resistance when connected through the water and to one of the element power terminals, then yes, the element is compromised. You should read an infinite resistance under the conditions described above.

 

[terrenum]

If you are measuring 25 ohms of resistance when connected through the water and to one of the element power terminals, then yes, the element is compromised. You should read an infinite resistance under the conditions described above.

I am measuring 25 with one probe in the water and one probe at the end of the power cord on the plug but this is the new element I just installed.

Would it give me this reading if the element is not grounded properly?
How does an infinite reading shows on a multimeter?
Thanks

UPDATE
This is weird. I have my HLT that also has an element in it. I filled it with water and took a resistance read. nothing happens my multimeter gives me a OL read.

tried again on the boil kettle with the spanking new element and it gives me a read of 25-30. any clue?

 

[processhead]

That seems odd for a new element. Is this element connected to the original power cord?
Can you disconnect the cord and and test just the new element only?

 

[terrenum]

That seems odd for a new element. Is this element connected to the original power cord?
Can you disconnect the cord and and test just the new element only?

Thanks for your input.
I just measured the element unplugged and got nothing. plugged the cord back and it is fine now. I don't get any reading. I only get a measure when I put both probes on the plug which is normal that would be the resistance of the element. tried many times before putting everything back together and still no measure with a probe in water.

 

[terrenum]

How can I ground the element? High Gravity Brew (where I bought the system) cut a small piece of the plastic on the element and drilled a small hole at the base of the element. I am not equipped to do this. HOw about simly extending the wire to the kettle handle? Would that work?

 

[processhead]

Usually an element will have a metal housing around the terminal end of the element. The ground wire will be connected to the housing and will ground the kettle as well as provide strain relief for the cord and protection of the connections from spills and physical damage.

What you have pictured is not a recommended way to make a cord connection. The problem with grounding that way is one of poor reliability. Taping a wire to the handle is not going to give you a reliable or durable electrical connection.

Ideally, you want to use an element housing similar to this:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotpod-ewl.htm

 

[LarMoeCur]

See that bolt pointing down. That is the ground point. The plug will have three wires. Two hots and a ground. You need to open up the connector housing and see what those wires look like. With that ball of tape over everything leads me to believe you got a short somewhere. Have you gave High Gravity a call? They should be able to help you.

 

[lschiavo]

I think grounding the element base is a very good idea of course. With my kettles, I did that AND extended the ground to the kettle. With the various methods I've seen for attaching elements, it seems possible that the element base and kettle may not be electrically bonded.

 

[terrenum]

I have now modified the connection. I will order the hot pod shown above but since I have to brew tomorrow I installed an electrical box so it is grounded properly. Also secured the hot wires with silicon tape.

 

[doug293cz]

Do you have a GFCI on your 220V power yet? I didn't see that mentioned. Dont' brew without it.

Brew on

 

[fragged]

I have now modified the connection. I will order the hot pod shown above but since I have to brew tomorrow I installed an electrical box so it is grounded properly. Also secured the hot wires with silicon tape. View attachment 546767

From what I've read in this thread, I'd highly discourage you brew without having an electrician come check things out for you. He can put the proper 220 gcfi on as well. I'd bet for the price of the gcfi job ( and a few homebrews), he look over the rest for free and make any suggestions from there.

Not to be rude, but there were several times here that your electrical knowledge showed as lacking for handling 220, especially around water. Again, not trying to flame or anything, just trying to help.

 

[terrenum]

I have now bought a proper brewing element with an element casing and a ground on the element. In other words it is back to its original state. I do not have a GFCI plug but didn't have any the numerous other times I brewed beer.
I will have an electrician come and check it out even though it's delaying things even further
Thanks for your response

 

[The_Bishop]

Brewing on an electrical system without GFCI is playing Russian roulette.

 

[whovous]

Assuming his outlet is properly grounded, is there any reason he cannot use an external/plug-in GFCI? I use one with my 120V system; it is much cheaper than an electrician.

 

[The_Bishop]

I'm fairly certain there isn't a plug-in 220v GFCI unless you make one out of a spa panel.

 

[whovous]

Hmm, that could be a good reason not to use one...

 

[terrenum]

Ok. Thanks for your input everyone. I will have an electrician come and install a GFCI hot tub device on the system.
Now in order to minimize costs I want to figure out as much as possible before he comes here and charges me 100$ per hour
Here is my entire setup. A 50A 240v plug straight out of the electrical panel.
Then I have a 35' long power cord that goes all the way to the controller on which I connect my 2 kettles.
Where should the GFCI hot tub box go? Can I install it between the plus and the controller? That would probably be the cheapest option as the electrician could simply cut the wires of the cord and install the box. What do you think?

 

[terrenum]

Additional picture

 

[z-bob]

How can I ground the element? High Gravity Brew (where I bought the system) cut a small piece of the plastic on the element and drilled a small hole at the base of the element. I am not equipped to do this. HOw about simly extending the wire to the kettle handle? Would that work?View attachment 546717

That will almost work. You need a more secure connection -- like a "split bolt connector" on the handle. Or you can drill a hole right under the rim and use a stainless steel bolt with lock washers and connect to that. Also make sure you have a secure connection at the other end (I can't see what's under that tape)

 

[fragged]

I have now bought a proper brewing element with an element casing and a ground on the element. In other words it is back to its original state. I do not have a GFCI plug but didn't have any the numerous other times I brewed beer.
I will have an electrician come and check it out even though it's delaying things even further
Thanks for your response

Good to hear.

Plow through some turkey in the mean time, happy thanksgiving!

 

[processhead]

Ask your electrician to wire the spa panel between the breaker in your panel and your 240 volt receptacle.

 

[The_Bishop]

That connection to your kettle heating element is super sketchy. You should be using 10-3 SJOOW power cord.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Just a minor point. In the original post, Terrenum says he was electocuted. Generally speaking, folks who are electrocuted are much too dead to brew beer. Just sayin'.

However, this thread has definitely made me rethink my power supply. Everything is right except no GFCI protection. I'll be installing a GFCI breaker before I brew again. Thanks all, for perhaps saving my life.

 

[lschiavo]

Just a minor point. In the original post, Terrenum says he was electocuted. Generally speaking, folks who are electrocuted are much too dead to brew beer. Just sayin'.

However, this thread has definitely made me rethink my power supply. Everything is right except no GFCI protection. I'll be installing a GFCI breaker before I brew again. Thanks all, for perhaps saving my life.

I know and understand proper grounding. It's my job. The first thing I bought for my electric brewery was a GFCI breaker.

 

[NerdBrewer22]

Those guys at High gravity beer. I'm not very impressed but what they sold ya [emoji848]. I did Herms system too with my brother and I made him realize how important was the GFCI in that project !

 

[lschiavo]

Those guys at High gravity beer. I'm not very impressed but what they sold ya [emoji848]. I did Herms system too with my brother and I made him realize how important was the GFCI in that project !

It's "buyer beware" like just about everything else. They are not responsible for what you plug it into. If I were building them, I wouldn't want that on me either. People do some very creative things with electricity... Let's us be safe around here.