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tnance1337 said:
Couple of pieces I'd like to toss in here that may help you. Others have made some great comments on the importance of yeast pitching rates and temperatures, so hopefully you'll follow their advice.

1)It's great that you are now cooling your wort much quicker. Definitely a step in the right direction. I would suggest, though, that you leave the lid off the kettle. Some may disagree (mostly for fear of contaminants finding their way in), but you are also going to run into a bit of a concern with DMS. To put simply, DMS is a volatile off-flavor compound that adds a cooked vegetable flavor to beer (think creamed corn). It is usually evaporated during boiling, at a percentage rate equal to boil times, but will usually always be present in the final product (mostly because you won't boil off all of it, and DMSO can be converted by most yeasts to DMS during fermentation, even though some of it is "scrubbed" by CO2). This is one reason why fast cooling after boil is important. Now, one problem you will find is that DMS is still being produced during the cooling phase (and is unavoidable), and by leaving the lid on, you are allowing DMS to precipitate and be reabsorbed into the wort.

2)As mentioned earlier, gravity readings aren't exactly all about measuring alcohol content. I think your reasoning as to why you aren't concerned about gravity comes from being slightly less knowledgeable about brewing. Gavin C's reasoning is very sound, and I highly suggest you follow his advice. In short, it's all about dialing in. If you don't measure gravity (during all-grain, it's very important to measure gravity of each running during sparging), then you truly have no idea about the fermentables content in your wort, and in the end, that's a major factor in the final result. Will it be beer? Absolutely. But you're on a quest to make GOOD beer, so don't expect the yeast to work miracles for you (although when you learn more about yeast, they are quite amazing to say the least). Plus, it only takes seconds to measure.

Also, water chemistry. Learn it. Others have chimed in, and have great information to offer on it. Ultimately, this is very likely the cause of your twangy flavor. Alkalinity is usually the culprit. Mash pH and temperature will have a major impact on flavor for even the tiniest of changes.

Lastly, I agree with you that it probably isn't the more "exotic" ingredients imparting these off flavors. Don't misunderstand me here. However, if you want to fix your problem, simple is best. It's cheaper, and it will help you dial in your process first. You have some gaps in your process that I'd work on first before straying too far away in style. You'll be happy you did.

3) Good luck, and I can't wait to hear your triumphant exclamation that you destroyed this problem! :tank:
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I relabeled your points to help narrow down the relations of my responses.

1) Dude...NEVER would have known that. I've never heard of such a thing. I'll keep the lid off from now on.

2) I think I"m more comfortable with the concept of taking the cap off the fermentor to do some minor maintenance now without the fear of allowing too much oxidation in there. I've done 8 batches now and not a single one has gotten an infection. This tells me I have the sanitation part under control and maybe I've been over protective of the wort. For gravity readings, I think my biggest fear/the reason why I'm not doing them...is because I'm not sure how to extract the wort safely while in a carboy. I have a turkey baster that should be able to suck up some wort but I'm worried about splashing and the plastic part of the baster isn't the most secure. It could potentially fall off and land in the wort. Long shpiel short, I know how to take a reading after seeing a few vids, but I haven't found a good vid that shows HOW to GET the wort out without causing issues. Also, I'll be rehydrating the dry yeast. I don't have the ingredients around to do a a starter. Rehydration of yeast sounds a lot easier from what I've read.


3) You're damn right I'll report back. I took advantage of that trifecta sale Midwest had and ordered 3 Big Ben Pale Ales. I'm not going to put anything fancy in it. If I read the ingredients correctly, it sounds like it should taste similar to the 60 Minute IPA.
 
sky4meplease said:
It's definitely caused by not taking gravity readings!

But really just a thought because I believe this happened to me.

My first sparge arm was built from cheap pvc pipe. They make two kinds of this white pipe one is pvc and the other cpvc I think. Cheap pvc can leach solvents when exposed to high temperature liquids. I had a dozen brews under my belt when I stumbled across this information and was chasing down off flavors. Now I was changing a lot about my processes throughout when I made this change but I strongly believe it may have contributed. Check your system to make sure your hot liquids aren't being exposed to plastics that could leach chemicals.

Other than that grab a BJCP Beer Scoresheet and try to pick the proper term for your off flavor. Since "soapy" or "twangy" don't show up as descriptors on that sheet maybe picking one or two proper terms will help the qualified (not me) to help you pin it down.
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For sparging, I prep 170f hot water and use a plastic measuring cup to scoop it out and I use my fiance's collander that she uses for pasta to sprinkle the hot water accordingly into the mash.
 
My suggestions for getting gravity from carboy is to get a wine thief I finally brought one from LHBS. It takes a lot of worry out of getting sample to check gravity. I also have Speidel with a spigot that I get samples from. Have to use San Star in the spigot and cover but both methods work.

Cheers
 
I found exactly what I need to take samples from my carboy. A beer thief! I have a wine thief but I don't think it would work the same as it does in this vid I watched. It looks like it works the same as what a bartender does to test a drink by sticking the stirring stick in the cocktail and holding their index finger at the top creating natural suction.

Now..where to find it for purchase.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f11/10929d1240943622-beer-thief-help-1648.jpg

EDIT: I found the product and it was the same vid that I found on YouTube. But I don't understand why you don't put the sample back in. Good thing I've never attempted this. I'd have screwed that part up badly. So you just fill the hydrometer up to about 3/4'ths full, measure and discard??

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/3-piece-thief-plastic.html
 
russell58 said:
My suggestions for getting gravity from carboy is to get a wine thief I finally brought one from LHBS. It takes a lot of worry out of getting sample to check gravity. I also have Speidel with a spigot that I get samples from. Have to use San Star in the spigot and cover but both methods work.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Bingo. Wine Thief!

I used a turkey baster for a few years while I was only fermenting in buckets. After I started fermenting more than a couple batches at a time, I added some carboys. Realized I needed a better way to pull a sample, because the baster was clumsy to use through the little mouth of a carboy. Plus, I would need to pull 2-3 times from the beer for enough volume to full the hydrometer sample. Enter the wine thief, and it was much easier.

A plastic one will cost you 6-10 bucks depending. They are long and thin, and easy to manage. I recommend.

Good luck on those pale ales, MyCarHasAbs! Let us know how it goes!
 
I have a wine thief but I don't understand how you'd empty the sample into test tube for the hyrdometer. Does it act similar to a bottling wand and have a spring at the bottom that when pressed releases the liquid?
 
With most wine thiefs (thieves?) you can actually insert your hydrometer directly into it, as they are designed for that particular use. Do a quick search on youtube for "How to use wine thief" and you'll find some examples.
 
tnance1337 said:
With most wine thiefs (thieves?) you can actually insert your hydrometer directly into it, as they are designed for that particular use. Do a quick search on youtube for "How to use wine thief" and you'll find some examples.
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I'll toy with it later tonight but it's quite long. Might have a hard time getting the hydrometer out haha. Why do some articles suggest tossing the samples and others pouring them back in from the inner walls of the carboy?
 
Drink your hydrometer sample. Every time. Tasting it along the way is as important to understanding what's going on as the gravity. I wouldn't pour it back in anyway, too risky, too many points of contact no matter your sanitation practices.
 
1977Brewer said:
That's exactly what it is. It'll work fine in a pinch. Do you have a test tube?
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Sure do. Never used it haha.

1) a few drips here in there on the way out of the carboy won't bother anything?

2) how full do I fill the test tube up?
 
You're making far too much out of a trivial brewing task. Did you ever play with a drinking straw as a kid? Put it in the glass, put your finger on top, and stare in wonderment as the liquid stayed in the straw? Then you'd drink it of course. That's how a wine thief works.

All you have to do is santize the business end, then dip it into the fermenter and pull out a sample. Typically you need 3 or 4 pulls to fill a hydrometer tube. Take out the airlock. Hold the thief in one hand and the tube in the other. Work over the fermenter, minimize drips, but RDWHAHB because it doesn't matter.

When done, pour the sample into a glass and start learning how beer tastes when it's fermenting. Or you can pour it back into the fermenter, as I often do - :eek: - I'm a terrible risk taker. ;)

Either way this is truly no big deal, and it's a basic brewery task that you should learn how to do casually.
 
McKnuckle said:
You're making far too much out of a trivial brewing task. Did you ever play with a drinking straw as a kid? Put it in the glass, put your finger on top, and stare in wonderment as the liquid stayed in the straw? Then you'd drink it of course. That's how a wine thief works.

All you have to do is santize the business end, then dip it into the fermenter and pull out a sample. Typically you need 3 or 4 pulls to fill a hydrometer tube. Take out the airlock. Hold the thief in one hand and the tube in the other. Work over the fermenter, minimize drips, but RDWHAHB because it doesn't matter.

When done, pour the sample into a glass and start learning how beer tastes when it's fermenting. Or you can pour it back into the fermenter, as I often do - :eek: - I'm a terrible risk taker. ;)

Either way this is truly no big deal, and it's a basic brewery task that you should learn how to do casually.
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QFT. I understand caution for sanitation, but in my opinion (just an opinion!), infection is highly unlikely with just a few drops from a wine/beer thief making it's way back into your carboy, unless you're REALLY unsanitary to begin with, but it sounds like you're not.

But, in case you are still paranoid about sanitation, do what I do, and keep an empty spray bottle (like 99 cents from walmart), and mix a solution of iodophor or starsan in the bottle. A couple of quick sprays on most of my equipment has never let me down. Just be sure to dump your spray bottle when you're done for the day. That solution has a limited shelf life of effectiveness.
 
Also, to add that others have mentioned...the tasting of the sample.

Honestly, one of my favorite activities is the hydrometer sample every few days. It's actually an important part of my process. When I ferment, say, a pale ale, and I want main fermentation to set in at 64 degrees over 3-4 days, I need to take that gravity reading to check in on where the yeast is at. Yeast strains behave slightly differently from each other in ester production (among other flavor compounds), so not only am I checking fermentation, I'm also checking flavor production as I taste my samples. It will help me understand what my next steps are. If you're taking a gravity reading just to pour it back in to the carboy, you're missing out on an important step.

This is all of course, if you're really trying to dial in your system and processes. Some people just set it and forget it, and are happy with that. It's still beer right? Sometimes it might be great beer. Most of the time, however, it'll just be adequate beer. I say this because all of this advice given is about helping you make good beer, not adequate beer.

Cheers! :mug:
 
The hydrometer tube holds about a half cup of beer. I pour most of it back, and reserve about a shot glass worth to taste. Best of both worlds.
 
Skiffy said:
I thought people keep their starsan solution for months? My bucket of solution has kept under 3 pH for some time now.
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You are right on starsan. I think the general opinion is that starsan (once mixed and diluted) will be effective for quite some time, as long as the pH is at that low threshold. Mixing with distilled water and keeping the mixture free from O2 and sunlight exposure will prolong that shelf life. It is still limited, nevertheless. Iodophor, on the other hand, has a much shorter shelf life, something like 24 hours, as it degrades quite quickly.

But, if you're mixing a very small solution in a spray bottle, it's easy to just toss it once you're done (in my case, I usually use half a spray bottle on brew day), and mix up a new batch when I need it.
 
I think I've discovered a portion of my problem. Just poured the strike water in and I'm waiting for it to get down to the appropriate temp (155 or slightly higher) and it's taking a hot minute to drop from 170.

I was pouring, pitching the grain and goin'. It was probably too damn warm.
 
MyCarHasAbs said:
I fly sparged three times. Only once had the water level up top gone below the surface of the grains. Maybe my efficiency is a bit too low?
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Fly sparging is a continuous process. It should be only done once to the best of my knowlege and halted once the desired preboil volume is reached or the pH gets too high.

Perhaps I'm missing something and others will correct me.
 
Also, (while currently in mid boil) here's where I suspect one issue may be...I'm currently well above 120F. Am I scorching the malt?

This could possibly explain why none of my beers are crystal clear, with the exception of my wheat beer.
 
Gavin C said:
Fly sparging is a continuous process. It should be only done once to the best of my knowlege and halted once the desired preboil volume is reached or the pH gets too high.



Perhaps I'm missing something and others will correct me.
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I'll elaborate a little on that note.

I'm using a two cup volume measuring cup to collect sanitized water that's 165+ F and dribbling it over a colander (pasta strainer) until the two inch (approx) marker is met in the mash tun..and closed the lid. I did this a grand total of three times.

Anything off?
 
OH!! Also..I have a digital scale upstairs, because..y'know..I'm getting fat haha and measured the total weight of my grains. It was 11.6 lbs. did the conversion and it came out to 3.625 gallons of water to use for strike. I collected about the same amount.
 
MyCarHasAbs said:
I'll elaborate a little on that note.

I'm using a two cup volume measuring cup to collect sanitized water that's 165+ F and dribbling it over a colander (pasta strainer) until the two inch (approx) marker is met in the mash tun..and closed the lid. I did this a grand total of three times.

Anything off?
Click to expand...

This is not fly sparging. Also why are you sanitizing things pre boil. This is not needed.
 
You could be right but I say if you wanna do 10 styles in 10 recipes, do it. If it sucks, age it. If it still sucks, dump it. That's the beauty of it... You do it how you want and learn as you go.
 
MyCarHasAbs said:
Then what is it?
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Fly sparging is a continous sparge where the sparge water is added at a continuous flow rate equal to the rate at which wort runnings are drawn out. You would basically need to pump or gravity feed water slowly as you slowly draw wort out.
 
MyCarHasAbs said:
Then what is it?
Click to expand...
What you describe does not have a name but would seem to indicate some gaps in your knowledge. The following is taken from Palmer's "How to brew"

What is Sparging?

Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

The wort should be drained slowly to obtain the best extraction. Sparge time varies depending on the amount of grain and the lautering system, .5 - 2.5 hours. Sparging means "to sprinkle" and this explains why you may have seen or heard discussion of "sparge arms" or sprinklers over the grain bed for lautering. There is no reason to fool with such things. There are three main methods of sparging: English, batch and continuous.

In the English method of sparging, the wort is completely drained from the grain bed before more water is added for a second mash and drained again. These worts are then combined. Alternatively, the first and second runnings are often used to make separate beers. The second running is lighter in gravity and was traditionally used for making a Small Beer, a lighter bodied, low alcohol beer suitable for high volume quaffing at mealtimes.

Batch Sparging is a U.S. homebrewing practice where the full volume of sparge water is mixed into the mash. The grain bed is allowed to settle, and then the wort is drained off. The re-circulation step in this process takes place in the first minutes of the sparge. You can use more than one batch of water if you need to. This method differs from the English method in that the mash is not held for any significant time at the saccharification temperature before draining.

Continuous Sparging usually results in better extractions. The wort is re-circulated and drained until about an inch of wort remains above the grain bed. The sparge water is gently added, as necessary, to keep the fluid at least at that level. The goal is to gradually replace the wort with the water, stopping the sparge when the gravity is 1.008 or when enough wort has been collected, whichever comes first. This method demands more attention by the brewer, but can produce a higher yield.

Here is a very informative thread about fly-sparging that you might find useful. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hybrid-fly-sparge-technique-75454/

Also, regarding the hydrometer measures you show. At least one of the measures you have taken are incorrect. To go from 1.04 preboil to the very high post boil you show following the dilution of the wort with 4 gallons of water would have required a massive boil-off to near LME consistency. It is more likely that the wort was not adequately mixed prior to either the pre-boil, post boil or both readings being taken.

Sanitation: Anything that touches the wort after the boil is complete and the wort has been chilled below a certain temperature should be sanitized. Prior to the boil sanitation is redundant. One of the reasons beer is so ancient is that it is an extremely effective way to make dirty water safe to consume when done correctly. Boiling kills the nasties. You're not going to do any harm by sanitizing preboil items. It's just pointless extra work.
 
1) the video I watched months back is how I initially started AG and THAT'S exactly what the guy was doing..the collander and such. Whatever that's called, that's what I'm doing. I read up on that link you provided though.

2) So my ridiculously high reading...you said it most likely wasn't mixed properly post boil, I assume after everything was mixed with water and two weeks from now I should get a semi normal reading? Also, was the 1.04 reading good or too low?? Side note** the directions never once said to mix the wort after collection. I've been collecting the same volume that I initially strike with. In this case it was 3.625 gal. (and yes I used a calculator after weighing the grains.)

3) Now I'm pissed at the sanitation steps. Every ingredient kit I've ever bought has stressed the urgency of sanitizing your equipment. UGHHHH!! That's probably half a bottle of starsan gone to waste. Part of me kinda knew this..I thought boiling water killed nasties but I was just following directions.
 
1 there are as many useless homebrew vids as there are good ones. Probably more. The sprinkling the water though a colander will work but you need to do it constantly for 30-60 minutes depending on the rate of the Sparge.

Doing it 3 times is not effective. It would need to be consistent.

With an all grain brew you typically will not be topping up with water. You are targeting a specific volume and gravity going into the FV. All the water calculations are done with that end in mind. There are exceptions to this but with a preboil of 1.04 that would not apply.

That top up water would be better utilized to Sparge with to bring up your volume and extract more sugars. It is more useful this way. Greater efficiency will result. The top up water if used should be sanitized. I guess I'm confused as to your overall process. It does not sound like an all grain process. With the preboil volume you showed I would expect a post boil of about 1.045. If you added 4 gallons of water that would bring it down to 1.020 ish. Rough estimate. Your reading was so high that the prediluted wort would need to be like syrup.

Why were you diluting the wort. We're you using extract? I'm really not getting it I'm afraid.
 
Gavin C said:
1 there are as many useless homebrew vids as there are good ones. Probably more. The sprinkling the water though a colander will work but you need to do it constantly for 30-60 minutes depending on the rate of the Sparge.

Doing it 3 times is not effective. It would need to be consistent.

With an all grain brew you typically will not be topping up with water. You are targeting a specific volume and gravity going into the FV. All the water calculations are done with that end in mind. There are exceptions to this but with a preboil of 1.04 that would not apply.

That top up water would be better utilized to Sparge with to bring up your volume and extract more sugars. It is more useful this way. Greater efficiency will result. The top up water if used should be sanitized. I guess I'm confused as to your overall process. It does not sound like an all grain process. With the preboil volume you showed I would expect a post boil of about 1.045. If you added 4 gallons of water that would bring it down to 1.020 ish. Rough estimate. Your reading was so high that the prediluted wort would need to be like syrup.

Why were you diluting the wort. We're you using extract? I'm really not getting it I'm afraid.
Click to expand...




Woah, wait..time out. Let me highlight something you said.
With an all grain brew you typically will not be topping up with water.
Click to expand...
Are you saying I'm supposed to collect the full 4+gallons of wort from the mashtun?..and that I'm not supposed to add water post boil to the carboy to reach the full volume? If that's so this is a major news flash to me.

I guess I'm confused as to your overall process. It does not sound like an all grain process. With the preboil volume you showed I would expect a post boil of about 1.045. If you added 4 gallons of water that would bring it down to 1.020 ish. Rough estimate. Your reading was so high that the prediluted wort would need to be like syrup.
Click to expand...

So besides the fact that I took that reading before mixing the water and the wort, what else would cause the reading to be so high?

And no, I haven't used an extract kit in nearly 8 months.

I think I'm going to start a new thread and just reference this one. 8 pages is getting to be a bit much.
 

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